Discussion on Anticheat and why it is useless ,especially on a kernel level .

[MHDEN]

It has come up way to many times that people ask for Anticheat , not understanding that is basically impossible to ever have a perfect one and it is basically a never ending race .

I could go on and explain why for palworld specifically isn't even worth discussing , by just reminding people that the game is in Alpha ,mainly PVE, has dedicated servers and that the devs should focus their resources and time elsewhere . BUT i am not .

What i will do is post a video were you can see for yourself that defeating any anti-cheat is both possible and feasible , and by actively choosing to go as deep as kernel level you are making a very profitable market for solutions that will be shown in the video .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwzIq04vd0M

Now that we have established that cheating will exist anyhow , i want to remind people that even big companies such as MSI are making blatant cheating monitors that use AI .

https://www.tiktok.com/@linustech/video/7324870064501443846

So what do you achieve with having said kernel level anticheats . You put yourself at risk to be used as bot net or a cryptofarm , like they did back in 2013 .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/19/brilliant-but-evil-gaming-company-turned-players-computers-into-unwitting-bitcoin-mining-slaves/

or have your security compromised , like in ghesin impacts case were it disabled the antivirus in 2022

https://securityaffairs.com/134884/malware/anti-cheat-driver-disable-antivirus.html

I hope it helps sway some of you to not support having both your security been compromised OR make cheat creators money .

As for Palworld itself , it has an advantage most games do not ,it has dedicated servers , and having the power in your hands to ban who ever you want from your server at any point is way better than relying in dubious software .The real problem right now is that you cant actually ban cheaters because they use spoofed steamids , this could be something that can be worked on .

[MHDEN]

Messaggio originale di Ruke (Soreasan):

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

Now you are opening a huge topic. Shareholder metrics and mmo culture are topics that can only be categorized as pure greed and toxicity.

As for MMO culture, unfortunately its what you get when you have a never ending game. You are not paying for X hours of gameplay, but a never ending experience. It is what makes it most appealing for shareholders.

Yeah, i maybe drag on a lil sometimes, but when i do, mostly it's just out of passion for something or getting carried away. If i don't care much about something, i tend to go 'meh' as much as anyone else lol.

Kinda like relationships or games sometimes. If you still care a lot about something that's maybe not perfect, you might see a lot of people everywhere, try to save it for the good they hope inside, even if it's coming out as criticism.

if people really don't care. They just walk past and leave.

We don't spend our efforts talking about all the mediocre movies that weren't really exciting enough to hate, talk about, or linger over. But i do feel like you're on the point that Shareholder metrics and metrics OVER gameplay. For a game that succeeded BECAUSE it disregarded them seems paradoxal.```

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w3hnaUo-50

Like it's a meme, but even for all the "Palworld is DEAD.. it only has 500,000/ 2,000,000 players with 8,000,000+ copies sold and people playing it 24/7 until the 50-100+ hrs of gameplay were over!" noises..

I still remember for 20 years, nearly everyone i knew in my school played runescape. And it was a 2000 hr to max, 27000 hr to 200m xp all skills ehp zezima / Suomi that game.

And it cracked at 70k-240k players in it's GLORY days. And like 10-50k after bot nukes, with f2p bots probably inflating the player count 3x since they were 24/7.

If you were chasing shareholder metrics over actual player sastifaction, you'd end up with World of warcrafts. Games that used to be mindlessly addictively fun.

> And when private servers existed, people realized that. Some games were clouded by nostalgia. but Wotlk was geniunely more mindlessly fun than BFA wow. You logged in, did your dailies, ran dungeons with friends. Dungeons had great rewards. You grinded to a tundra mammoth, You raided ice crown, you had fun.

In BFA WoW (World of warcraft). You logged in. You did 10 hrs of azerite mining chores. You did 4 hours of pvp you hated in a tank spec because it took 500 g (doubling each time) to change your 1 set of gear to dps spec.

You grinded 20 hrs, to do one 20 minute dungeon a week, then logged off.

Wotlk Wow was mindlessly fun, just like Palworld. BFA WoW was chorishly unfun, to milk "/time played" metrics. Because 90% of people were leaving. So they tried to make everyone play 10x more to please the shareholders Activision had, that Palworld doesn't.

Wow took the reins from Everquest going "If you don't like our game, then quit". 20 years prior. And BFA Wow repeated that by also killing raiding so you couldn't cross faction raid or cross server raid, for 20-25$ server / alliance to horde transfers. It was a game ORIGINALLY made to be fun, by gamers, for gamers, and a record success.

And it lost it all to be a corporate puppet, by corporate, for corporate. and 90% of people left when it said. "Don't like it? Then quit or buy the 25$ server transfer"

Turns out players are open. They don't care about shareholder metrics, paying customers care if the game is fun, or if the paying customer WANTs the game. And that's why palworld, undertale, and FF14 sell. Starfields, Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice league / Ubisofts angry at Elden rings Flop.

They're not selling to the customer who wants to buy them. They're selling to the developers who want to ignore criticism to worship their own ego. Nobody's immune to that either. But i'd still think it might be a honest mistake to discard success to be a corporate puppet.

But i guess i shouldn't try to derail too much from the drm discussion lol.

Hmmm..

Tl;dr try
o Just bouncing through the thoughts. Everyone feel free to skip through em / skim if wanted 100%.

- Yeah, making a game to milk metrics, over being made to be fun seems a mistake.
- Palworld is fun because it's fun. Not because it's trying to please shareholders.

DRM stuff.
o Hacker = Bad
o Anti cheater protection = Good.
o Invasive drm = Bad
o Non invasive Drm that works = ?????????

Gamers have been lead astray to games as a service and unfortunately many have not experienced the glory days of gaming .Were experiences were complete , when a story had a beggining ,a quest and a climax . So now they get glorified never ending hellholes that can never get a satisfing ending because they took so long no story end can fill the void .

Also i agree with the DRM stuff .

[AI Sin || SinNoAria]

I'll be honest, anti-cheat won't really stop cheating. It will, at best, make it so that the less determined won't cheat.

DRM is kind of pointless as well since it will honestly do more harm than good. Especially at this point since the game is already out.

Personally, anti-cheat is more of a temporary measure.

[Khergit Horse Archer]

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

Messaggio originale di Khergit Horse Archer:

1) again crux of the issue is that you can edit game state, the steam id is used as a value to identify users to edit game state. this should not be possible.

2) are you going to rollback the entire server and the player data everytime someone cheats? the logistics of such a rollback eventually wears down the player base/admin. why not just fix the root of the issue and then add on additional mitigations.

why are we building on shaky foundations? there HAS to be server authority in place before you add on these mitigation as it is impractical in the long run.

3) depends on how it is implemented, but if its a server wide vote for majority kick then let's just say i think you are seriously naive that it'll pass or not be used for grief.

and lets not even talk about how many players do not even know how to restore backup of their game.

4/5) im not saying palworld exist for pvp or pvp focused. im saying multiplayer is the most wanted feature. is it true or not?

anti cheat plugins act as additional layer on top of existing game anti cheat measures not alone. again, anti cheat is not done in a single layer, it's a multi layered solution.

maybe you have a glimpse but i don't think you understand what i'm getting at which is that the game lacks the foundation for fair play which must be fixed because it's what the majority or what the masses want.

again, i have to reiterate i do not care for multiplayer. i am just telling you why your topic is silly and why your ideas are wrong.

1) Then it should be fixed .You are talking as if kernel anticheat is the only way to fix it ,this is just bad coding or maybe an exploit that even exists in other games .You are rushing to a nuclear option .

2-3)Ah you see i am a firm believer of this quote "A COMPUTER CAN NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE
THEREFORE A COMPUTER MUST NEVER MAKE A MANAGEMENT DECISION" as such an anticheat with a little to much freedom hits me sour . I would rather be troll kicked by some kids than getting banned because i happen to open word or netflix on my second screen and it thinks i am cheating and get banned . But for the lols here is the article .
https://valo2asia.com/word-exe-to-netflix-exe-alleged-cheating-incident-surfaces-in-valorant-challengers-indonesia-split-1/

But you must understand , thought i do believe that anticheat is useless , specifically for palworld at this point and that i do see it as a money drain , i do understand that there should be some backbone server authority .Valheim doesnt even have an anticheat and it does just fine .I firmly believe the main reason people complain is because official servers exists , and there are no admins to save them there .

As for if they know the commands to fix the problem , its alpha .You can ask here , in discord or look in google . They are going to do it anyway , because if you remember before 1.4 saves were corrupted frequently , its early access , there will be bugs , we can all learn to copy paste a line in cmd .

4/5) I had a feeling the most wanted feature was not having their save corrupted pre 1.4 but i will take it as face value that multiplayer with friends has been the most requested feature ,meaning co-op or dedicated servers , but it is a problem for console users that have no other choice but to subject themselves to the torture of official server running at 5 fps/tps and random world wipes that have nothing to do with hackers .

As for if it is actually what the community wants is not as clear as you think . It is in fact what the most vocal part of the community wants because they are the ones that have been wronged/cheated on .

You have every right to believe my opinion both silly and wrong , and i could go and fix the title to be less sensational and align better with how i explained it later , but it would be dishonest to our current discussion .I also believe your stance silly and wrong but i do understand it only comes from frustration and inability to find other solutions to the problems .And calling me misinformed isnt really helping .

I will make my stance more clear .

I am against anticheat if it is intrusive ,it has been done before it can be done again .
There is not need at this time for one . It is a money and a time sink .
The game is fast changing and they need as much flexibility as possible .
Official PC servers are the biggest part of the hacking problem as well as the biggest money sink .

let's go back to the original post and the very first reply which gave an impression of you being "uninformed" as i put it.

your topic was "Discussion on Anticheat and why it is useless ,especially on a kernel level" and on the very first reply, most of it's content was to utilize workarounds or mitigations for the lack of fair play mechanisms.

while these are legit suggestions, they still require some sort of protection to work alongside. which comes back to my point, the easiest and most relevant answer for the devs right now is to utilize what you described as "useless"

i'll list here why it's the most easiest and most relevant answer over what you've suggested below:

pros of "anti cheat" or probably EAC:
1) cost efficient because it is free and integrating it is still much more cost effective over hiring talents/expertise

2) impact of integration is low, can be easily integrated and easily removed

3) good enough for palworld's use case, even some competitive games use EAC and while it's true that it is not the strongest anti cheat out there, it works at filtering out some.

4) EAC in a unreal engine just sounds obvious no brainer

cons of "anti cheat" or probably EAC:
1) short term gap till they somehow start building protection in the server side

2) not platform agnostic, but pc versions just need to have it and the rest can probably run without

2) misconfigured anti cheat will not act as a effective filter, devs need to competently install and integrate and configure the anti cheat otherwise it's "useless" as you put it.

alternatives:

server side anti cheat: too costly to implement and takes a long time to build up protection, requires expertise or other services from other companies.

server side anti cheat plugins or community mods: requires devs to constantly vet their source code and having to depend on an external party's code is not viable for the company. because the blame lays on them solely should anything go wrong like malicious code injection.

all in all, i don't know if EAC is a kernel level anti cheat or if it's going to be useless or whether it'll even be EAC, maybe it'll be battleye like ARK. but what it obviously solves is filtering out cheaters. which your solutions in your very first reply do not.

[☄️⁧⁧Sneakydude555]

Messaggio originale di cha0tic:

Too bad we can't have cheaters arrested. It would make online gaming a lot better.

Japan is technically doing that. I think south korea is doing this too.

[MHDEN]

Messaggio originale di Khergit Horse Archer:

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

1) Then it should be fixed .You are talking as if kernel anticheat is the only way to fix it ,this is just bad coding or maybe an exploit that even exists in other games .You are rushing to a nuclear option .

2-3)Ah you see i am a firm believer of this quote "A COMPUTER CAN NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE
THEREFORE A COMPUTER MUST NEVER MAKE A MANAGEMENT DECISION" as such an anticheat with a little to much freedom hits me sour . I would rather be troll kicked by some kids than getting banned because i happen to open word or netflix on my second screen and it thinks i am cheating and get banned . But for the lols here is the article .
https://valo2asia.com/word-exe-to-netflix-exe-alleged-cheating-incident-surfaces-in-valorant-challengers-indonesia-split-1/

But you must understand , thought i do believe that anticheat is useless , specifically for palworld at this point and that i do see it as a money drain , i do understand that there should be some backbone server authority .Valheim doesnt even have an anticheat and it does just fine .I firmly believe the main reason people complain is because official servers exists , and there are no admins to save them there .

As for if they know the commands to fix the problem , its alpha .You can ask here , in discord or look in google . They are going to do it anyway , because if you remember before 1.4 saves were corrupted frequently , its early access , there will be bugs , we can all learn to copy paste a line in cmd .

4/5) I had a feeling the most wanted feature was not having their save corrupted pre 1.4 but i will take it as face value that multiplayer with friends has been the most requested feature ,meaning co-op or dedicated servers , but it is a problem for console users that have no other choice but to subject themselves to the torture of official server running at 5 fps/tps and random world wipes that have nothing to do with hackers .

As for if it is actually what the community wants is not as clear as you think . It is in fact what the most vocal part of the community wants because they are the ones that have been wronged/cheated on .

You have every right to believe my opinion both silly and wrong , and i could go and fix the title to be less sensational and align better with how i explained it later , but it would be dishonest to our current discussion .I also believe your stance silly and wrong but i do understand it only comes from frustration and inability to find other solutions to the problems .And calling me misinformed isnt really helping .

I will make my stance more clear .

I am against anticheat if it is intrusive ,it has been done before it can be done again .
There is not need at this time for one . It is a money and a time sink .
The game is fast changing and they need as much flexibility as possible .
Official PC servers are the biggest part of the hacking problem as well as the biggest money sink .

let's go back to the original post and the very first reply which gave an impression of you being "uninformed" as i put it.

your topic was "Discussion on Anticheat and why it is useless ,especially on a kernel level" and on the very first reply, most of it's content was to utilize workarounds or mitigations for the lack of fair play mechanisms.

while these are legit suggestions, they still require some sort of protection to work alongside. which comes back to my point, the easiest and most relevant answer for the devs right now is to utilize what you described as "useless"

i'll list here why it's the most easiest and most relevant answer over what you've suggested below:

pros of "anti cheat" or probably EAC:
1) cost efficient because it is free and integrating it is still much more cost effective over hiring talents/expertise

2) impact of integration is low, can be easily integrated and easily removed

3) good enough for palworld's use case, even some competitive games use EAC and while it's true that it is not the strongest anti cheat out there, it works at filtering out some.

4) EAC in a unreal engine just sounds obvious no brainer

cons of "anti cheat" or probably EAC:
1) short term gap till they somehow start building protection in the server side

2) not platform agnostic, but pc versions just need to have it and the rest can probably run without

2) misconfigured anti cheat will not act as a effective filter, devs need to competently install and integrate and configure the anti cheat otherwise it's "useless" as you put it.

alternatives:

server side anti cheat: too costly to implement and takes a long time to build up protection, requires expertise or other services from other companies.

server side anti cheat plugins or community mods: requires devs to constantly vet their source code and having to depend on an external party's code is not viable for the company. because the blame lays on them solely should anything go wrong like malicious code injection.

all in all, i don't know if EAC is a kernel level anti cheat or if it's going to be useless or whether it'll even be EAC, maybe it'll be battleye like ARK. but what it obviously solves is filtering out cheaters. which your solutions in your very first reply do not.

Some quick points .
EAC is kernel , ring 3 , least intrusive form but its still has access to files and processes .VAC is also kernel ring 3 .All ring 3 kenrel level anticheat cant detect kernel level 2-1-0 cheats or anything hardware modified .
Both VAC and EAC work in linux , with EAC needing a bit more work .
Consoles have their own form of DRM so you dont really need to care for them that much .
If a cheat works in console its probably because its a flaw in the console itself.

While its true it is way more cost effective to use a premade software , it is way less costly than the monthly pay to upkeep the official servers . Pocket Pair also has the upper hand right now , because they are swimming in money, for the time being .Investing in security experts to join their ranks would seam most appropriate move .Especially now that companies are having such a massive layoff streak .This is a great time to snipe them .

To my knowledge once an anticheat is implemented its takes alot of time to remove .
You can disable it , but you will leave garbage within your code associated with it .
Not really the best of scenario were performance is key .

So my opinion is , they should use the timing and extra funds they have available to expand their team with experts . It is a way better image towards the community .It says "We hear you and we are going to do it properly " .

[Pay Child Suport]

I have to ask everyone. why do you think the devs will put their hard earned money to anti-cheat PUBLIC servers? its called public for a reason. cheaters included.

I heard from somewhere (no source sorry) that they actually paid a pretty decent amount of money to the servers. their wallets bled to an extent. if anything I am skeptical they will provide public servers in the future.

[✠Tommy✠]

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

Messaggio originale di Ruke (Soreasan):

Yeah, i maybe drag on a lil sometimes, but when i do, mostly it's just out of passion for something or getting carried away. If i don't care much about something, i tend to go 'meh' as much as anyone else lol.

Kinda like relationships or games sometimes. If you still care a lot about something that's maybe not perfect, you might see a lot of people everywhere, try to save it for the good they hope inside, even if it's coming out as criticism.

if people really don't care. They just walk past and leave.

We don't spend our efforts talking about all the mediocre movies that weren't really exciting enough to hate, talk about, or linger over. But i do feel like you're on the point that Shareholder metrics and metrics OVER gameplay. For a game that succeeded BECAUSE it disregarded them seems paradoxal.```

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w3hnaUo-50

Like it's a meme, but even for all the "Palworld is DEAD.. it only has 500,000/ 2,000,000 players with 8,000,000+ copies sold and people playing it 24/7 until the 50-100+ hrs of gameplay were over!" noises..

I still remember for 20 years, nearly everyone i knew in my school played runescape. And it was a 2000 hr to max, 27000 hr to 200m xp all skills ehp zezima / Suomi that game.

And it cracked at 70k-240k players in it's GLORY days. And like 10-50k after bot nukes, with f2p bots probably inflating the player count 3x since they were 24/7.

If you were chasing shareholder metrics over actual player sastifaction, you'd end up with World of warcrafts. Games that used to be mindlessly addictively fun.

> And when private servers existed, people realized that. Some games were clouded by nostalgia. but Wotlk was geniunely more mindlessly fun than BFA wow. You logged in, did your dailies, ran dungeons with friends. Dungeons had great rewards. You grinded to a tundra mammoth, You raided ice crown, you had fun.

In BFA WoW (World of warcraft). You logged in. You did 10 hrs of azerite mining chores. You did 4 hours of pvp you hated in a tank spec because it took 500 g (doubling each time) to change your 1 set of gear to dps spec.

You grinded 20 hrs, to do one 20 minute dungeon a week, then logged off.

Wotlk Wow was mindlessly fun, just like Palworld. BFA WoW was chorishly unfun, to milk "/time played" metrics. Because 90% of people were leaving. So they tried to make everyone play 10x more to please the shareholders Activision had, that Palworld doesn't.

Wow took the reins from Everquest going "If you don't like our game, then quit". 20 years prior. And BFA Wow repeated that by also killing raiding so you couldn't cross faction raid or cross server raid, for 20-25$ server / alliance to horde transfers. It was a game ORIGINALLY made to be fun, by gamers, for gamers, and a record success.

And it lost it all to be a corporate puppet, by corporate, for corporate. and 90% of people left when it said. "Don't like it? Then quit or buy the 25$ server transfer"

Turns out players are open. They don't care about shareholder metrics, paying customers care if the game is fun, or if the paying customer WANTs the game. And that's why palworld, undertale, and FF14 sell. Starfields, Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice league / Ubisofts angry at Elden rings Flop.

They're not selling to the customer who wants to buy them. They're selling to the developers who want to ignore criticism to worship their own ego. Nobody's immune to that either. But i'd still think it might be a honest mistake to discard success to be a corporate puppet.

But i guess i shouldn't try to derail too much from the drm discussion lol.

Hmmm..

Tl;dr try
o Just bouncing through the thoughts. Everyone feel free to skip through em / skim if wanted 100%.

- Yeah, making a game to milk metrics, over being made to be fun seems a mistake.
- Palworld is fun because it's fun. Not because it's trying to please shareholders.

DRM stuff.
o Hacker = Bad
o Anti cheater protection = Good.
o Invasive drm = Bad
o Non invasive Drm that works = ?????????

Gamers have been lead astray to games as a service and unfortunately many have not experienced the glory days of gaming .Were experiences were complete , when a story had a beggining ,a quest and a climax . So now they get glorified never ending hellholes that can never get a satisfing ending because they took so long no story end can fill the void .

Also i agree with the DRM stuff .

I guess Steam itself is a non invasive DRM? It requires you to log to be able to play the game but other than that you can play offline with no internet connection without issues.

[rage]

Messaggio originale di ✠Tommy✠:

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

Gamers have been lead astray to games as a service and unfortunately many have not experienced the glory days of gaming .Were experiences were complete , when a story had a beggining ,a quest and a climax . So now they get glorified never ending hellholes that can never get a satisfing ending because they took so long no story end can fill the void .

Also i agree with the DRM stuff .

I guess Steam itself is a non invasive DRM? It requires you to log to be able to play the game but other than that you can play offline with no internet connection without issues.

Some games can be played without Steam running at all by launching the game via the EXE. You can also code a Steam emulator but no online play and items won't work with the emulator.

[✠Tommy✠]

Messaggio originale di rage:

Messaggio originale di ✠Tommy✠:

I guess Steam itself is a non invasive DRM? It requires you to log to be able to play the game but other than that you can play offline with no internet connection without issues.

Some games can be played without Steam running at all by launching the game via the EXE. You can also code a Steam emulator but no online play and items won't work with the emulator.

Well didnt say its a good drm. Doesnt unreal engine itself have some drm features in it?

[MHDEN]

Messaggio originale di Tentacle Grape:

I have to ask everyone. why do you think the devs will put their hard earned money to anti-cheat PUBLIC servers? its called public for a reason. cheaters included.

I heard from somewhere (no source sorry) that they actually paid a pretty decent amount of money to the servers. their wallets bled to an extent. if anything I am skeptical they will provide public servers in the future.

I believe official servers should close down and be Console exclusives , until late beta .
Public servers are a far better experiences for the game , because unlike official servers ,dedicated are monitored by the Owner/Admin and can fix many problems that can happen very fast . If i am not wrong we are talking for about a thousand official servers , all regions combined , and it costs them around 400k dollars per month . It by far less expensive to focus on dedicated servers rather than officials. The only reason why we are not seeing more games use them is because it makes the game 'eternal' . To this day people still host COD4 original servers and that is a big hit when you want to make money from the remaster of the remaster of the special remaster HD . Fortunately , palworld is not competitive and should not effect them as much .

[Khergit Horse Archer]

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

Messaggio originale di Khergit Horse Archer:

let's go back to the original post and the very first reply which gave an impression of you being "uninformed" as i put it.

your topic was "Discussion on Anticheat and why it is useless ,especially on a kernel level" and on the very first reply, most of it's content was to utilize workarounds or mitigations for the lack of fair play mechanisms.

while these are legit suggestions, they still require some sort of protection to work alongside. which comes back to my point, the easiest and most relevant answer for the devs right now is to utilize what you described as "useless"

i'll list here why it's the most easiest and most relevant answer over what you've suggested below:

pros of "anti cheat" or probably EAC:
1) cost efficient because it is free and integrating it is still much more cost effective over hiring talents/expertise

2) impact of integration is low, can be easily integrated and easily removed

3) good enough for palworld's use case, even some competitive games use EAC and while it's true that it is not the strongest anti cheat out there, it works at filtering out some.

4) EAC in a unreal engine just sounds obvious no brainer

cons of "anti cheat" or probably EAC:
1) short term gap till they somehow start building protection in the server side

2) not platform agnostic, but pc versions just need to have it and the rest can probably run without

2) misconfigured anti cheat will not act as a effective filter, devs need to competently install and integrate and configure the anti cheat otherwise it's "useless" as you put it.

alternatives:

server side anti cheat: too costly to implement and takes a long time to build up protection, requires expertise or other services from other companies.

server side anti cheat plugins or community mods: requires devs to constantly vet their source code and having to depend on an external party's code is not viable for the company. because the blame lays on them solely should anything go wrong like malicious code injection.

all in all, i don't know if EAC is a kernel level anti cheat or if it's going to be useless or whether it'll even be EAC, maybe it'll be battleye like ARK. but what it obviously solves is filtering out cheaters. which your solutions in your very first reply do not.

Some quick points .
EAC is kernel , ring 3 , least intrusive form but its still has access to files and processes .VAC is also kernel ring 3 .All ring 3 kenrel level anticheat cant detect kernel level 2-1-0 cheats or anything hardware modified .
Both VAC and EAC work in linux , with EAC needing a bit more work .
Consoles have their own form of DRM so you dont really need to care for them that much .
If a cheat works in console its probably because its a flaw in the console itself.

While its true it is way more cost effective to use a premade software , it is way less costly than the monthly pay to upkeep the official servers . Pocket Pair also has the upper hand right now , because they are swimming in money, for the time being .Investing in security experts to join their ranks would seam most appropriate move .Especially now that companies are having such a massive layoff streak .This is a great time to snipe them .

To my knowledge once an anticheat is implemented its takes alot of time to remove .
You can disable it , but you will leave garbage within your code associated with it .
Not really the best of scenario were performance is key .

So my opinion is , they should use the timing and extra funds they have available to expand their team with experts . It is a way better image towards the community .It says "We hear you and we are going to do it properly " .

right, i don't really want to get into the rings and stuff cuz it gets confusing even though you specified EAC specifically is ring 3 and doesn't protect against the other rings.

for other posters, what this means is that EAC is impotent against cheats spoofed or injected within these rings, however in the case of windows and linux, only ring 3 and ring 0 are most relevant, ring 1 is possible through virtualization and hyperv but it can be indirectly detected within ring 3.

as for ring 0 vulnerability, windows and linux already have a direct way of combating these cheats, through the use of secure boot. most modern systems and hardware are compatible with this. what happens here is that drivers HAVE to be signed by microsoft instead of whatever rando on the streets.

this will however, require older systems and os to be phased out like win 7 and also require additional hardware like TPM on the bios.

you mentioned the cost is definitely cheaper to just slap on an anti cheat over server side anti cheat solutions and then how server cost is still way too high and definitely higher than to just go for server side anti cheat. it is true that the server cost are high, however for the normal user, all they need to know is that these server costs are due to scaling cost due to more resources allocated to spin up more servers to handle the initial wave of users.

there are already articles of microsoft stepping in to manage these extremely insane scaling cost.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2024/02/01/microsoft-will-help-palworld-scale-up-as-one-of-its-all-time-biggest-game-pass-launches/?sh=714af24a6435

with that in mind, yes it is extremely crazy high cost for servers, but do know it will only decrease, only question is how far reduced will it be?

again it all comes back to the point, yes dedicated servers are silly and immature at this stage however it is what most users care for the most. you previously mentioned about all the other game critical issues, yes these are very real issues however they are not features.

as far as optics go, pandering to the masses to fix multiplayer is probably the best move as that is what the everyday joe and jane normies want. sure critical game bugs/issues have a much higher impact, the user base is likely to stick around as evidenced by people still in their honey moon phase of the game despite facing these issues. i'm not disagreeing with you on their priorities being wrong but from the oppasite site, pandering to the masses and their pov is what the company wants to do, and in the shortest possible time.

[MHDEN]

Messaggio originale di Khergit Horse Archer:

right, i don't really want to get into the rings and stuff cuz it gets confusing even though you specified EAC specifically is ring 3 and doesn't protect against the other rings.

for other posters, what this means is that EAC is impotent against cheats spoofed or injected within these rings, however in the case of windows and linux, only ring 3 and ring 0 are most relevant, ring 1 is possible through virtualization and hyperv but it can be indirectly detected within ring 3.

as for ring 0 vulnerability, windows and linux already have a direct way of combating these cheats, through the use of secure boot. most modern systems and hardware are compatible with this. what happens here is that drivers HAVE to be signed by microsoft instead of whatever rando on the streets.

this will however, require older systems and os to be phased out like win 7 and also require additional hardware like TPM on the bios.

you mentioned the cost is definitely cheaper to just slap on an anti cheat over server side anti cheat solutions and then how server cost is still way too high and definitely higher than to just go for server side anti cheat. it is true that the server cost are high, however for the normal user, all they need to know is that these server costs are due to scaling cost due to more resources allocated to spin up more servers to handle the initial wave of users.

there are already articles of microsoft stepping in to manage these extremely insane scaling cost.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2024/02/01/microsoft-will-help-palworld-scale-up-as-one-of-its-all-time-biggest-game-pass-launches/?sh=714af24a6435

with that in mind, yes it is extremely crazy high cost for servers, but do know it will only decrease, only question is how far reduced will it be?

again it all comes back to the point, yes dedicated servers are silly and immature at this stage however it is what most users care for the most. you previously mentioned about all the other game critical issues, yes these are very real issues however they are not features.

as far as optics go, pandering to the masses to fix multiplayer is probably the best move as that is what the everyday joe and jane normies want. sure critical game bugs/issues have a much higher impact, the user base is likely to stick around as evidenced by people still in their honey moon phase of the game despite facing these issues. i'm not disagreeing with you on their priorities being wrong but from the oppasite site, pandering to the masses and their pov is what the company wants to do, and in the shortest possible time.

No company, especially the size of Microsoft , does anything for free .They are helping by essentially becoming a shareholder without ever being one . Rather than give money , they give servers, it is the same thing . So i dont really want to discuss how big a hole that can become if they continue to use MS's 'good will' .

As for Dedicated servers being immature , they are by far the best way to experience the game . And its not just hackers . At any time in an official server there are more that 60 bases inworld , with more than half of them being of inactive users that probably left the server already because it runs at 5 fps/tps . Then 5 days later the server wipes .Doesnt seam like something sustainable .

On another note , have you seen how many admin tools have been posted on nexus mods . I am really proud of this communities efforts .Even curseforge has made palworld compatible .Would be a shame if they were strong armed into removing mod compatibility from a bigger entity they had affiliation with because it ruins their business model that runs around selling worthless cosmetics and maps .

[Khergit Horse Archer]

Messaggio originale di MHDEN:

Messaggio originale di Khergit Horse Archer:

right, i don't really want to get into the rings and stuff cuz it gets confusing even though you specified EAC specifically is ring 3 and doesn't protect against the other rings.

for other posters, what this means is that EAC is impotent against cheats spoofed or injected within these rings, however in the case of windows and linux, only ring 3 and ring 0 are most relevant, ring 1 is possible through virtualization and hyperv but it can be indirectly detected within ring 3.

as for ring 0 vulnerability, windows and linux already have a direct way of combating these cheats, through the use of secure boot. most modern systems and hardware are compatible with this. what happens here is that drivers HAVE to be signed by microsoft instead of whatever rando on the streets.

this will however, require older systems and os to be phased out like win 7 and also require additional hardware like TPM on the bios.

you mentioned the cost is definitely cheaper to just slap on an anti cheat over server side anti cheat solutions and then how server cost is still way too high and definitely higher than to just go for server side anti cheat. it is true that the server cost are high, however for the normal user, all they need to know is that these server costs are due to scaling cost due to more resources allocated to spin up more servers to handle the initial wave of users.

there are already articles of microsoft stepping in to manage these extremely insane scaling cost.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2024/02/01/microsoft-will-help-palworld-scale-up-as-one-of-its-all-time-biggest-game-pass-launches/?sh=714af24a6435

with that in mind, yes it is extremely crazy high cost for servers, but do know it will only decrease, only question is how far reduced will it be?

again it all comes back to the point, yes dedicated servers are silly and immature at this stage however it is what most users care for the most. you previously mentioned about all the other game critical issues, yes these are very real issues however they are not features.

as far as optics go, pandering to the masses to fix multiplayer is probably the best move as that is what the everyday joe and jane normies want. sure critical game bugs/issues have a much higher impact, the user base is likely to stick around as evidenced by people still in their honey moon phase of the game despite facing these issues. i'm not disagreeing with you on their priorities being wrong but from the oppasite site, pandering to the masses and their pov is what the company wants to do, and in the shortest possible time.

No company, especially the size of Microsoft , does anything for free .They are helping by essentially becoming a shareholder without ever being one . Rather than give money , they give servers, it is the same thing . So i dont really want to discuss how big a hole that can become if they continue to use MS's 'good will' .

As for Dedicated servers being immature , they are by far the best way to experience the game . And its not just hackers . At any time in an official server there are more that 60 bases inworld , with more than half of them being of inactive users that probably left the server already because it runs at 5 fps/tps . Then 5 days later the server wipes .Doesnt seam like something sustainable .

On another note , have you seen how many admin tools have been posted on nexus mods . I am really proud of this communities efforts .Even curseforge has made palworld compatible .Would be a shame if they were strong armed into removing mod compatibility from a bigger entity they had affiliation with because it ruins their business model that runs around selling worthless cosmetics and maps .

no company does anything for free, doesn't mean you shouldn't be seeking their service. in the same vein to even begin developing server side anti cheat they would either require either an security audit of their game or a contract to outsource such a development. you are saying tons of stuff that really doesn't add to much.

just hosting alone has to be done thru other companies, nothing is free. literally nothing has been added to the conversation.

when im refering to dedicated servers, i use them interchangably, while others may differentiate dedicated as community or private servers. but my own terminology goes like this:

servers are either public vs private. ( password and or visibility )
dedicated vs self hosted. ( self explanatory? )
and finally community vs official, ( self explanatory? )
which is basically where you are going off on when i mentioned "dedicated"

community tools are an asset however, they are not a clutch. to stake your own company's success on community tools is a foolish idea, even the best of modded games like, minecraft, fallout, skyrim and many others have to stand on their own feet.

you mentioned about "bigger entity" strong arming palworld and removing mod support which is laughable. as you have alluded earlier, companies are greedy. they are aware modding is free content and adds to the game without having to invest development time, sort of like passive income if you will.

if anything, they are more likely to lockdown which server providers you can use rather than locking down modding. although that might actually be far worst, depending on if they restrict plugins allowed or plugin support.

in conclusion, i think i've dragged on the conversation too long and it remains clear to me anti-cheat is the most effective solution to counter the rampant and destructive cheating. because of these rampant and destructive cheating, it has made the company look far worst than any game breaking bug.

you've proposed what if's and have not provided clear examples of "big entity" evil and examples of "removing mod compatibility" upon acquiring certain rights for the game.