<Sun Caller> is a Terrible weapon.

[May]

Some people might disagree, but I strongly say that the <Sun Caller> staff which is dropped from Azeos is undeniably the most trash-like weapon added to CK by far.

For those who haven't used it, it works like a bouncy grenade launcher that uses magic/ranged/explosion damage as its modifier.

The problem is that the projectile literally bounces off from any non-player entity/object, and can fly hundreds of blocks before the timer ends or it hits the final target.

There are currently 3 large problems with this weapon.

• Unpredictable Bounce Angle
  
• Reward for beating an Important Boss
  
• Limiting weaponry for Mage class progression

Unprdictable Bounce Angle

For those who don't know, Core Keeper is a 3D game disguised as 2D from an angled player view. Which means objects like walls or entities can have a totally different result when a projectile bounces off from them from the top or bottom.

https://youtu.be/QUuJqsoT8Q0

Also, there's totally different results of hitting walls/entities.
Bouncy objects has safe-proof of not returning to the shooter when being shot at pointy side of walls, but it doesn't work on objects.

https://youtu.be/um5S_SVo_1k

This problem becomes much more apparent in situations like these.

IF, somehow there's an enemy outside your screen which luckily gets hits like an angle such as these, you're greeted with your happy fun ball back at your face.

https://youtu.be/VDQ_lOzfOiA

Oh, and you can shoot 3 of these happy fun balls with utterly NO expectation what will EVER HAPPEN to you and your friends! (or your farm)(or your house)(or your teleporter)(or your neighbor's moolin that was hundreds of blocks away from you)

It also has limitations of only be shot 3~4 times before your mana depletes, which doesn't even work as a downgrade of other grenade launchers which can be shot non-stop.

- - - - -

Reward, for beating an Important Boss

Besides being utterly unpredictable, <Sun Caller> is an epic item that drops from one of the necessary bosses you have to beat.

First of all, "EPIC" item? THIS?

Usually epic items are items that are way superior to their counterparts(unless they are fully upgraded), or allows the player one-of-a-kind buffs that are in-fact, unique.

(Yeah. Unique for being able to smack your face with a random fireball.)

While weapons like Poisonous Sickle have entire builds setted up for them at that stage, you have this joke of a weapon for beating a powerful titan that dominates a whole biome.

Now, some might say Azeo's gear pool is not that great to begin with(which is true). But this weapon can replace even the good loot such as the Azeos Dash Feather.

Also, it has the problem of...

Limiting weaponry for Mage class progression

The game currently provides 8 type of weapons for Mage classes.

<Sun Caller> is the ONLY mage weapon that drops from the Wilderness, meaning mages literally gain nothing other than this between during the Wilderness progression -> Making a boat in search of a Metropolis.

Your friends will be pissed for using such weapon whenever they get hit, so...
Getting hit by one of your shots means you lose mana, your weapon durability, your armor durability, your health(and the potions/food you use for healing), and your mental health along with your friendship.

And...you cannot use this seriously in a Hardcore gameplay.

- - - - -

Therefore, I truly, SINCERELY suggest of reworking the <Sun Caller>.
Like, make it pierce targets before hitting a wall, for a reliable explosion.
Or make it not bounce at all, or remove the explosion damage that is done against players or non-enemy objects.

Currently, this is a BAD grenade launcher, and a BAD mage weapon.

[TheCollector]

Imho :
"Mage class progression" in Core Keeper is mostly done by leveling your skills and UPGRADING your weapon and armor of choice. It's not done by killing more difficult bosses unless you want the soul effect of that boss or the boss has an item in his loot pool which really improves your build (like the rare Scholar Satchel with up to +18% magic damage).

Many mage players prefer the Arcane Staff (Lvl 8) since it is the fastest staff with 3.33 attacks per second and so should profit more often from certain skills than the other slower staffs with only 1 attack per second.
Upgraded to Lvl 19, the Arcane Staff provides 135-163 (= ca 500 base dps) magic damage and +15% crit chance.

New weapons and armors from bosses are meant to add to variety of that type of items to allow different builds. They are not meant for progression as in other games since all weapons and armors in the game can be upgraded to Lvl 19.

[May]

Originally posted by TheCollector:

Imho :
"Mage class progression" in Core Keeper is mostly done by leveling your skills and UPGRADING your weapon and armor of choice. It's not done by killing more difficult bosses unless you want the soul effect of that boss or the boss has an item in his loot pool which really improves your build (like the rare Scholar Satchel with up to +18% magic damage).

Many mage players prefer the Arcane Staff (Lvl 8) since it is the fastest staff with 3.33 attacks per second and so should profit more often from certain skills than the other slower staffs with only 1 attack per second.
Upgraded to Lvl 19, the Arcane Staff provides 135-163 (= ca 500 base dps) magic damage and +15% crit chance.

"Limiting weaponry for Mage class progression"
I don't know what came as your arguing point from that sentence, or the whole debate.

You get 1~2 weapons from every biome for every class. You get this joke of a weapon in the wilderness when you're playing as mage.

<Sun Caller> forces the player to upgrade their previous magic weapons since it's so terrible and limits its uses. I wasn't talking about armor, nor any other factor.

[May]

It's like I'm saying that this particular pistol has a backfire issue and it should be fixed and you're here saying glocks are the best, and we should all be buying upgrading glocks instead.

What kind of discussion is that?

[Ccrack]

i thought this weapon was great, blowing up tons of stuff all around makes it actually feel impactfull

if you just want another boring projectile but has slightly more damage go get the stormbringer and go be boring

[ICountFrom0]

Games are allowed to have weapons you don't like.
Progression does not depend on using every weapon, it depends on upgrading the weapon that you DO like.
Repeat, progression is based on UPGRADES, not on random drops. It's actually more dependable this way.

Bad weapons have two purposes in games. One is to teach you that some weapons ARE bad. Sometimes the game will put in a horribly bad weapon that is just obviously bad, so bad that nobody would ever use it. This is done so that you know that some of the items are not good, and might be more subtle in the ways they are bad. The other reason you might find a bad weapon is, you are just not compatible with it.

So yes, games can have bad weapons, and it's okay.

[May]

Originally posted by ICountFrom0:

Games are allowed to have weapons you don't like.
Progression does not depend on using every weapon, it depends on upgrading the weapon that you DO like.
Repeat, progression is based on UPGRADES, not on random drops. It's actually more dependable this way.

Bad weapons have two purposes in games. One is to teach you that some weapons ARE bad. Sometimes the game will put in a horribly bad weapon that is just obviously bad, so bad that nobody would ever use it. This is done so that you know that some of the items are not good, and might be more subtle in the ways they are bad. The other reason you might find a bad weapon is, you are just not compatible with it.

So yes, games can have bad weapons, and it's okay.

You know that your beloved "upgrade stations" were added in the game WAYY after CK first came out. Which means the core mechanic of progression the game originally supported was getting better weaponry each time you enter a new, stronger biome, not relying on upgrades. It was meant to give more accessibility for players who wanted to stick to their previous weapons.

Your emphasizing on "forcing" upgrades as the core gameplay strategy is like saying GOATs are the only way of playing Overwatch back at the day.

Games can have a bit funny/troll-like weapons(or bad ones), sure. Like Terraria's "pink boulder", or "Bunny" from Borderlands 2.

But guess what's the difference with those games with CK? They have HUNDREDS/THOUSANDS of weapons&launchers for each type of gameplay class compared to CK's measly little 8(for mage).

Oh, and you said it "teaches" you that some weapons are bad, right? Than does the fact that this weapons drop from 5 of the Strongest BOSSES' lootpool mean it is a teaching tool that your reward for clearing such trials can be a piece of garbage?

You sound like a cheated, divorced wife who was gaslighted to the core that she still supports & defends her husband.

[May]

I forgot to add these. Of course, "Pink Boulders" is MEANT to be a installing/building item that is only accessible by workstation & only by players who know what they're doing.

"Bunny" doesn't blow up the map, nor blows up your friends & can be thrown in lower platforms, it's easier to predict its movements, and insta blows up when it hits an enemy rather than bouncing off and hitting you in the bloody face.

[TioRast]

Originally posted by ICountFrom0:

Games are allowed to have weapons you don't like.
Progression does not depend on using every weapon, it depends on upgrading the weapon that you DO like.
Repeat, progression is based on UPGRADES, not on random drops. It's actually more dependable this way.

Bad weapons have two purposes in games. One is to teach you that some weapons ARE bad. Sometimes the game will put in a horribly bad weapon that is just obviously bad, so bad that nobody would ever use it. This is done so that you know that some of the items are not good, and might be more subtle in the ways they are bad. The other reason you might find a bad weapon is, you are just not compatible with it.

So yes, games can have bad weapons, and it's okay.

Is not a starter ( tutorial ) weapon neither a lower tier one, a bad weapon is despise what it does fails miserably for what has to do, bad weapons in games are cause of balance, this is a EPIC type of weapon there is NO REASON has to be that bad in the first place, relying too much on upgrade stations is a bit dumb and this game does follow game progression for example how you think crit is actually viable after you beat the third boss or how "dodge" stacking become better when you reach sunken sea metropolis.

[ICountFrom0]

And yet, we've seen somebody on here who LOVES it.

Again, it's okay for you to not like a weapon.

It is NOT okay to take it away from the people who do like it.

Progression uses the upgrade table in this game, even if you don't like that, it's how the game works.

[May]

Originally posted by ICountFrom0:

And yet, we've seen somebody on here who LOVES it.

Again, it's okay for you to not like a weapon.

It is NOT okay to take it away from the people who do like it.

Progression uses the upgrade table in this game, even if you don't like that, it's how the game works.

"It's how the game works" XD
Did you even read what I wrote?

Upgrade stations were an ADDITION, not a core mechanic in the first place.

You're those boomer-like stereotypes that only says your words and opinions are the LAW.
I showed my reasons why the weapon's the worst and need fixing.

It's your personal opinion that weapons such as these shouldn't be fixed.
Get over it.

[May]

Originally posted by Ccrack:

i thought this weapon was great, blowing up tons of stuff all around makes it actually feel impactfull

if you just want another boring projectile but has slightly more damage go get the stormbringer and go be boring

I can respect your questionable liking to the weapon. But, I'll say these.

First of all, Stormbringer's not a projectile weapon. It's considered a melee weapon.
It's literally a hitscan, therefore it's a totally different object. So I feel sorry for your attempt to mock the item.

Second of all, IF you're looking for blowing off walls, Bomb Scarab Mortar deals more explosive damage while Burnzooka is better piercing weak walls.
The only thing the Sun caller can do over those two is shooting 3 projectiles at once(+hitting you in the face), which in fact, 9/10 make you get kicked off from any logical multiplayer section.

[ICountFrom0]

Originally posted by May:

[
Upgrade stations were an ADDITION, not a core mechanic in the first place.

Yes, they were added, as a core mechanic.
They started out with only a few levels.
And then they rebalanced everything around using them when they completed the game.

Just because it was different in the alpha days, don't make what you got used to in the early days true.

You don't see me complaining about the bucket, do you?

[May]

Originally posted by ICountFrom0:

Yes, they were added, as a core mechanic.
They started out with only a few levels.
And then they rebalanced everything around using them when they completed the game.

Just because it was different in the alpha days, don't make what you got used to in the early days true.

You don't see me complaining about the bucket, do you?

Oh god, now you're suddenly impersonating a dev?
Nothing was re-balanced around using a upgrade station in the first place, it was just you get more accessiblities and levels for weapons when you level them up.

The upgrade station was added one and a half year later in the game's development progress, the original idea of "progression" you nag your teeth into was that you get new, cool items when you enter harder biomes and use them.

Upgrade stations allowed players to keep their loved weapons, thus enabling better weapon options than the previous versions. It can be used as YOUR gameplay core mechanic, and I'm saying here, it's NOT the only freaking answer, JESUS.

IF it was the CORE mechanic that you love so much, why not upgrade the fishing rods via Upgrade station instead of making a new one? Why not upgrade the shovels? Why not upgrade your pickaxe? It just enables you to keep your favorite gear and make them viable in the late game, and you're blabbering about it is some kind of the ONLY holy grail in the game.

You're so stuck in your own idea I think that there's no point of arguing on this matter.

[ICountFrom0]

What do you call having 19 new levels of upgrade instead of one, if not "rebalanced", explain at least a little?

[Ilthe]

Originally posted by May:

Originally posted by ICountFrom0:

And yet, we've seen somebody on here who LOVES it.

Again, it's okay for you to not like a weapon.

It is NOT okay to take it away from the people who do like it.

Progression uses the upgrade table in this game, even if you don't like that, it's how the game works.

"It's how the game works" XD
Did you even read what I wrote?

Upgrade stations were an ADDITION, not a core mechanic in the first place.

You're those boomer-like stereotypes that only says your words and opinions are the LAW.
I showed my reasons why the weapon's the worst and need fixing.

It's your personal opinion that weapons such as these shouldn't be fixed.
Get over it.

You don't have a slightest idea how EARLY ACCESS works, right?
CORE GAME MECHANICS are sometimes changed during early game development.
Now, that early access is over, everything that is in the game is a core mechanic, like it or not.

Switching from only static progression (purery loots/crafting) to primary dynamic one (upgrade station) was an early access change like that. It allows to add more interesting different gear options instead of heaps of the same guns but with slighter better stats, and removes useless archaic bloat of the game.
There is some amount of static progression in loots and crafting, but you are introduced to the UPGRADE station (and incouraged to make different builds utilising your skills and various gear that you can upgrade) at the same time you leave the "tutorial area" around the core. And as a mage you make a choice - to use your old but upgraded firestick or your new shiny toy. Or keep both.

No need to be so aggressive overy your inability to grasp a concept of "careful weapon handling". It is a good powerful weapon when you use it correctly, not the best possible one, but (if you insint that static progression is superior to dynamic) it it a weapon from literally first boss out of tutorial area. The two other weapons you listed as better ones are from higher level areas duh. As part of static progression they are supposed to be better.

Basic pattern recognition should tell you to not use Sun Caller anywhere around things you don't want to break (including your base, pets and teammates, just like single use explosives and boomsticks you can find in the first "tutorial" areas before unlocking the wall, and some boss soul thingies that you as a sane player usually keep deactivated while you are doin base maintainance or visiting friends).
If you need to use weapons in rare situations like that, you use your secondary weapon, not a mass destruction one.

Not using upgrade for tools like fishing rods is a way to still give you some indirect guidance of what order the areas are supposed to be visited without locking you from risk-reward options to drasticly upgrade your combat gear and progress faster by keeping the three biomes wall-separated.