Damage vs. Crit Damage vs. Crit Chance

[Neirgara]

I'm trying to find a way, to determine which bonus to take with items or pet skills dps-wise. For example, is it better for a given character to take +3% damage or +5% crit chance? And if there is an item with +33% critical damage, and there is a nother item with +x% (noncritical) damage, how much should x be to result in at least as much dps than with the first item?

But sadly I'm very bad at math, so I don't even get close to find out how that works.

Is there someone with a better functioning brain than me, who already found it out, or is there some homepage or small software that allows me to outsource my brain functionality (so I can invest all my mental capability in figuring out what color I want to paint my walls so they get along with the carpets)?

[Softshine798]

I don't know about an exact inequality for what you're talking about, I can at least try to help illustrate a picture for some better DPS understanding for some better understanding, or to at least start off if someone wants to create an inequality for you.

Imagine three variables:
X= Normal damage
Y= Crit chance
Z = Crit damage

Each weapon has a base damage, which is increased by (X percent) for each corresponding damage type boost. The player has zero innate crit chance, but that chance is increased by (Y percent) for each boost, and also has a 50% innate crit damage boost, where crit chance increases crit damage dealt by (Z percent).

There are two skills that increase crit damage overall: Thorny Weapons (Gardening; +25% when maxed) and Amplified Precision (Ranged; +40% when maxed). There is also a skill in Ranged (Weakness Detection) that grants a 10% chance to briefly guarantee critical hits when landing a ranged shot, all of which can definitely help DPS.

For me, I usually like to build for normal damage because it's far more consistent unless I can get a high critical chance normally. Two builds I liked was Throwing Daggers and Concealed Blade for a consistent crit chance coupled with very high rate of fire and earlier on, Ivy's Armor combined with Poisonous Sickle and Blowpipe for extremely high critical damage and good overall crit chance due to Ivy's passive.

[Neirgara]

@never forget david reimer

Sorry, there may be a misunderstanding. I know, how damage and dps in the game in general works (though I do NOT know how exactly crit damage is calculated, and if different percentual damage boni get applied as a total or separately)

What I'm looking for, is a way to find out, if a given bonus on either damage, crit damage or crit chance has a higher impact on dps than another given bonus.

For example: I have an owl pet, and I can choose only one of two skills. One is +5% Crit Chance, and another is +3% Close Combat Damage. How can I find out, which of those two will increase the dps of the character more? And how do I find out without having to do extensive paperlong calculations? (because, as I said, I'm not good at math and probably will get several errors in my calculations without even realizing)

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For fights against single mobs I also prefer flat damage increase, but for bosses, where I will have to hit the same target 50 times or more, crit chance and crit damage becomes relevant.

[woldancer]

Truth off pets the bigest dps Boost is from attack speed, tho triple trouble is also crazy strong over time (base dmg+ thorns bonus assuming scarab armor= ) X (1.0+ dmg% bonuses) X ( {[100 + crit dmg] x [crit rate /100]} /100) x (1.0 + [triple trouble rate x3/100]) should give you average dmg per attack
so let me take my own number i use a crystal spear which does an average of 239( 262-216) i have a thorns bonus of 185, so my base dmg is 424, i have +50% melee attack from 100 melee skill as well as 36.1 from the spear itself for 86.1% melee dmg boost. i have 177 crit dmg at 38% rate or about 105.26, and my pet has 4 triple trouble and one melee swing, but not needed at this point, the triple averages 1.24 so lets plug in the math for dmg per swing

424 x 1.861 = 789 x 105.26%(1.0526) = 830.5014 x 1.24 = 1029 as my average dmg over a large sample size
now to get dps we take the weapons attack per second which is 2.5 for my spear + my single 3.0%([swing%/100] +1) swing bonus so 2.5x 1.03 = or about 2.575
so my average dps is 1029x2.575 = 2649.675

a few wild card tho, fast and furrious gives a 50%swing speed for what i think is 3 seconds, but i cant find anything saying how long it actually last but assuming its 3 seconds at a 10% proc rate and assuming you dont chain proc it, which you can, it would be something like (average delay x .1 x 1.5) + average delay = 2.96125 which increases dps to 3047.12625

also i dont know at which decimal the game rounds/ floors also food and some traits scewes these numbers alot, tho food buffs for attack speed arnt that strong, and there is no other way to get triple, that the small amount we can get grows dmg quickly (over time)

[Softshine798]

Originally posted by woldancer:

so let me take my own number i use a crystal spear which does an average of 239( 262-216) i have a thorns bonus of 185, so my base dmg is 424, i have +50% melee attack from 100 melee skill as well as 36.1 from the spear itself for 86.1% melee dmg boost. i have 177 crit dmg at 38% rate or about 105.26, and my pet has 4 triple trouble and one melee swing, but not needed at this point, the triple averages 1.24 so lets plug in the math for dmg per swing

424 x 1.861 = 789 x 105.26%(1.0526) = 830.5014 x 1.24 = 1029 as my average dmg over a large sample size

Woth that number and your high crit chance/damage, that seems a bit off. Wouldn't the overall damage multipliee be (base dmg * [1+crit damage] * crit chance, and for the addion of theoretical crit damage be (|difference of avg dmg with crite - average dmg without|)? because I got 285 and 139, reapectively.

[Neme]

ahh yes, the good ol choice of..

Crit Damage vs. Crit Chance vs Attack Speed vs Normal Damage

personally speaking, I tend to favor attack speed in games when i am attempting to balance those stats,

I mean i can attack twice as often, doubling the chance to have a Crit chance to happen.

For me, I tent to aim for a good 30% crit chance at the very least in games by default and try to get as much attack speed as i can to go with it

that is unless i get lucky with item drops and can stack crit chance over 65%, then ill try n stack more Crit damage

[woldancer]

{[100 + crit dmg] x [crit rate /100]} /100) is effectively to get a idea of crits effect on your dps over time

first you need to convert the crit dmg from a % to a whole number(as this game dosent have negative crit you would start at 1.0, but the game has a give me 50% which means lowest crit dmg is 1.5x which the game displays as 50% crit dmg) which is how i got 277 from 177%, in truth 277 in this case would actually be a 2.77 multiplier at that floor when it triggers. crit rate/100 is also to get it as a decimal in this case 38% chance is 0.38, 38% of 277 is 105.26, convert this back to a multiplier, and its x 1.05626 average incress of a large sample sizes dmg aka if i took down 100 hits worth of dmg my crit rate and dmg would only incress my over all dps by about 5/6%...., thing is tho, you throw in rare elder (22% crit rate) and rare verdent(51% crit dmg) and this explodes. 328crit dmg and 60% rate is 196.9 or x1.96 multiplier to average dps boost

long of the short tho, that part of the equation is mostly to convert you crit rate and dmg, into what its average effect would be on overall dps over time
PS something i did not think about in the full equation is where "adds mining/fishing to dmg" effect is in the equation, im thinking its added directly to base dmg

Pss and im thinking you were surprised by the high base dmg, yea... the scarb sets add thorns dmg + trait from Gardening(50 thorns) + Polished gold spike rings gives a massive boost to base dmg, and crystal spear has the 2nd or third highest dps melee in the game, the galaxy dagger is easily the higest in a thorns set up, lava axe can fight the crystal spear in some set ups, and then is poor old rune song.... thing needs some love

[mjkittredge]

For me what I go for depends on what biome I'm in. If I'm going through an old biome where I can 1 or two shot most monsters, attack speed is king.

If percent damage bonus (like staff and book) allow me to one shot tentacles with a normal hit then that's better than a crit chance.

If I'm doing a lot of smaller attacks with say Chakram then high crit chance and crit damage are great because I'm attacking so many times so fast.

In your example, for what to pick for your pet bonus, I would say 5% crit chance is a better pick than 3% melee damage. The 3% damage is negligible and probably won't help you kill any faster. But a 5% chance to do way more damage will occasionally give you huge hits.

The way I look at it, does a bonus help me kill what I am fighting in fewer swings/shots? Does that set reduce the amount of times I have to hit that crab from 3 to 2, or 2 to 1? If not then I'm better off picking some other bonus. Sometimes X-percent damage will put you over the hump, and other times it won't.

[Swift_Talon]

in the case of the birb, crit chance is the best option, the damage bonuses are split so you can theoretically halve them to 1.5%. crit chance is 5% but you also halve it because base crit damage if 50% but it still comes out to effective 2.5%.
now the real boon the birb brings is the 2% chance to triple damage or move speed, i would aim for those over the minuscule damage buffs you get that likely wont matter in the long run.

[Neirgara]

Originally posted by woldancer:

first you need to convert..

Thank you for the math, that really helps. I still have to do a load of math myself, but at least I have a chance now. And the additional input to equipment could be a game changer for me.

I tend to prefer spears in games (I was so delighted when they added the Ancient Spear), as I usually like the fighting flow the most (and the aesthetics), and for armor I was switching between Godsend on tanking and Paladin for ranged (standing still).

I never like thorns effects, as I prefer to evade attacks, even with tanky cc builds. So I never looked closely into the Scarab armor. But with the thorn damage being added to base damage, that looks to be insane. I will definitiely test it out. Not sure, if it has better dps than a crit build, but it sounds like a better alternative to the Godsend.

Also, though I generally like daggers, I was a bit underwhelmed. But with the Scarab Armor, that also may be a game changer. And I never considered, how a much faster attack rate interacts with these kinds of boni.

And about the Triple Trouble:

I NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE EFFECT!

I play that game on German, and they translated it with "+2% damage on stunned targets".

[woldancer]

You can blame my time with FFxi which has some crazy math, also my set has some crit rate and dmg, with food bringing it it the mob is going to die right now levels, tho as a set for when your exploring its not the greatest, as you will have to eat most incoming dmg

[woldancer]

there is one thing i wanna try, but still havent gotten an ember tail with 5 flame snacks, but i have seen how a 90 flame dot gets turned to like 2k dmg from it triggering it, kinda curious what a full Burn set on the player and that pet could do, would be more a FOR Science type thing but still could be fun. Ps anyone how how many ticks Burn has in this game

[Neirgara]

Originally posted by woldancer:

there is one thing i wanna try, but still havent gotten an ember tail with 5 flame snacks, but i have seen how a 90 flame dot gets turned to like 2k dmg from it triggering it, kinda curious what a full Burn set on the player and that pet could do, would be more a FOR Science type thing but still could be fun. Ps anyone how how many ticks Burn has in this game

Don't know, how many ticks it has exactly, but by just setting things on fire / getting set on fire, and counting, it seems to tick 5 times.

Firebuild with Ember Tail sounds interesting. Should increase the overall damage for a very good amount. Should I buy a few dozen Embertails and try it out? Or do you prefer to try for yourself?

[woldancer]

i dont mind, im rolling but no luck so far, i dout it will come close to spike build, but its something that could get way better in the future

[woldancer]

got one with 4 fire snacks and 1 dmg bonus, and looks like its dmg + burn x 1-5(6?) x dmg multipliers aka yea if we ever got this effect as players it would be stupid. Becaus of the numbers i saw out of 20 i had 4 out of the ordinary that acted like there were 6 tics instead of 5, so not really sure whats going on there

[Neirgara]

Originally posted by woldancer:

got one with 4 fire snacks and 1 dmg bonus, and looks like its dmg + burn x 1-5(6?) x dmg multipliers aka yea if we ever got this effect as players it would be stupid. Becaus of the numbers i saw out of 20 i had 4 out of the ordinary that acted like there were 6 tics instead of 5, so not really sure whats going on there

That's interesting. Maybe it is something like 5.x ticks and/or based on the timing of when burn is applied?