Overwatch is trash

[UnholyDentist]

Title. The player's overwatch is not only shorter range than the enemy's but also more detrimental than beneficial in most situations. In order to direct it at an enemy, the knight has to step out of the cover, making itself a target. This not only results in making your knight a target practice dummy, but also takes away an important function of overwatch, which is to overwatch an area, not directly an enemy. For example, when the enemy is expected to approach from a given path, then overwatch toward that direction, is what we do in most TB games. Not here though, because the knight gets shot first.

I am open to ideas though, if somebody figured out how to use overwatch efficiently in this game. Because to me it seems, it's better to just attack the enemy than using overwatch, due to what I have explained above plus the short range, it's not a good idea to let enemies get close in this game (long injury recovery on hard difficulties). Plus it overwatch shots don't even stop the enemies, they just seem to shrug it off and carry on running towards the knights.

I think overwatch needs to be reworked:

- longer range if using only ranged weapon (2 handed)
- add +range from talents and items
- make lesser and standard enemies to stagger/stop when crit triggers during overwatch
- let the knights lean out from full covers and corners

[Bryxia]

If you don't have the range to kill the enemy, just fall back and stay behind high cover, then let the enemy approach.

The only time I ever use overwatch is when there is only a pack of melee combatants.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by Bryxia:

If you don't have the range to kill the enemy, just fall back and stay behind high cover, then let the enemy approach.

The only time I ever use overwatch is when there is only a pack of melee combatants.

Yea, it seems like it's only useful for melee only targets that die from 1 shot, which is pretty much just lesser zombies.

[2 tay 3 súng]

I don't think Overwatch is that trash. It's just situational. Even on legendary I still use it.
If you can't kill melee units when they are charging you, you can still weaken them enough for some easy kills next turn.
Use them when hiding behind half cover for lesser exposure. If you are in defensive mode you can put up Aegis shield for better protection, then Overwatch.
Most armed enemies will out-range you so don't use them on ranged enemies, use Overwatch for holding chokepoint is fine.

[-GK- Librarian Markus Ramikin]

I like the way overwatch works. It goes well with the change to Full Cover - now it's actually full cover, preventing damage, rather than a +% probability modifier that, in XCOM, is nullified anyway when you increase game difficulty.

When setting up Overwatch, you see a dot that shows you the way your character will move. You can set it up in a way that makes your character stay in cover. Of course this means your character can't overwatch forward, only sideways, but that's part of the different tactical feel that comes with Full Cover actually working like Full Cover. If you have your guys guarding some doorway from within, the enemies *have* to come to you and run into your overwatch anyway. (Unless they have cover-removing abilities, of course.)

[steven777]

I just used Overwatch on the Craftworld mission part 2. Just once.

My Justicar was immobilised in the open all he could do was Aegis up and Overwatch. He got off some shots.

Overwatch is fine as it is. The game wants you to play in a different way to XCOM. It's up to you to work out how.

[Janthis]

Overwatch is occasionally good against melee enemies, that's about it. I think I used it a few times against zombies, and forgot about it towards the mid to late game.

[EvilJoshy]

This game is not xcom. Its more like gears of war: tactics. It favors overwhelming offense. Overwatch is more of a defensive action. The only time it's practical is if the enemy is all melee or when reinforcements are about to arrive. Other than those occasions, if I can't attack them I use aegis or stay in cover.

[Domite]

Been playing around with it and honestly, it seems less than worthless, often making you take extra damage instead of being a defensive option.
Even if they kept the fact you have to stand out in the open, if it had the same range as your weapons, it might be useful as a situational. As it stands, if you would use it, it would be better to spend that AP on a shield or backwards movement.
It's a silly game decision that feels like it was only intended for the enemies that outnumber the player and was for some reason granted to the player despite being basically worthless outside of maybe fighting weak zombies who you can bop in one to two hits anyway and who won't be even staggered by getting explosive rounds to the face.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by Domite:

Been playing around with it and honestly, it seems less than worthless, often making you take extra damage instead of being a defensive option.
Even if they kept the fact you have to stand out in the open, if it had the same range as your weapons, it might be useful as a situational. As it stands, if you would use it, it would be better to spend that AP on a shield or backwards movement.
It's a silly game decision that feels like it was only intended for the enemies that outnumber the player and was for some reason granted to the player despite being basically worthless outside of maybe fighting weak zombies who you can bop in one to two hits anyway and who won't be even staggered by getting explosive rounds to the face.

I think it's hilarious that people think it's okay for the enemy to just run though overwatch, shrug off the damage and then carry on killing you.

[moerty]

it works for me if i back off and let them charge me on their turn, i use it heavily on the portals especially after a few executions when everybody has action points to spare, nothing looks sweeter than your squad unloading on a bunch of chaos scum as they jaunt across expecting to catch you on the back step.

[Ghost from warp]

You step out only of full cover oand only if you direct it towards the line you cant hit without stepping out of cover. If you don't understand mechanic- don't complain.

[kilen]

The only times I use overwatch is against full melee patrols, like demons ie.
There if all the squad take a defensive position + overwatch their closing distance path, its helpful, it does okay dmg without consequences.
And its worthy to make the enemy close the distance themselves in that case… after that you don’t waste AP to attack them, etc.

But that’s about it.
Every other cases, I only grab overwatch if I have AP remaining that I can’t use efficiently otherwise… that’s it.
So it’s not that efficient, but better than nothing in defensive situation (which usually should happen less often as possible imo, bully the enemy fast & hard work much better than the opposite).

So yeah, its meh… not great, but not terrible either.

Ps; I think we should have the possibility to have an upgraded overwatch maybe, maybe that would make it more interesting.
Like spending one WP on it and you have double dmg done if some enemy cross it, etc.
Or 1wp to extend his range by 50% ie.

But overall I also think the game is balanced with this overwatch, if suddenly it becomes strong, that wouldn’t work either.
So could be good to improve it, but there must be a cost.
And it must not become meta aka really strong.
It must remain a secondary option imo.
Although have the opportunity to invest WP to boost it a bit could be good without changing the “close range defensive” concept too much of the overwatch.
That could be good maybe…

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by kilen:

The only times I use overwatch is against full melee patrols, like demons ie.
There if all the squad take a defensive position + overwatch their closing distance path, its helpful, it does okay dmg without consequences.
And its worthy to make the enemy close the distance themselves in that case… after that you don’t waste AP to attack them, etc.

But that’s about it.
Every other cases, I only grab overwatch if I have AP remaining that I can’t use efficiently otherwise… that’s it.
So it’s not that efficient, but better than nothing in defensive situation (which usually should happen less often as possible imo, bully the enemy fast & hard work much better than the opposite).

So yeah, its meh… not great, but not terrible either.

Problem is that anything above normal, you will have the enemy run through the overwatch and then attack you. They will take some damage, but not enough to kill or stop them. Then they will injure the knights, which is very bad. The injury system is just too punishing on higher difficulties. It's better to just run away from the enemy.

[kilen]

Originally posted by UnholyDentist:

Originally posted by kilen:

The only times I use overwatch is against full melee patrols, like demons ie.
There if all the squad take a defensive position + overwatch their closing distance path, its helpful, it does okay dmg without consequences.
And its worthy to make the enemy close the distance themselves in that case… after that you don’t waste AP to attack them, etc.

But that’s about it.
Every other cases, I only grab overwatch if I have AP remaining that I can’t use efficiently otherwise… that’s it.
So it’s not that efficient, but better than nothing in defensive situation (which usually should happen less often as possible imo, bully the enemy fast & hard work much better than the opposite).

So yeah, its meh… not great, but not terrible either.

Problem is that anything above normal, you will have the enemy run through the overwatch and then attack you. They will take some damage, but not enough to kill or stop them. Then they will injure the knights, which is very bad. The injury system is just too punishing on higher difficulties. It's better to just run away from the enemy.

If you do the overwatch too close of them, sure.
I play legendary and still do it in the circumstances I said above.
It’s just I don’t do it if I am already close to them.
The trick is being distant enough to not be reachable in melee next turn, but close enough to make them enter the overwatch and take some hits.
Plus it can also steal them couple of tiles worth of movement.
Like let say demons have barely enough AP and tiles to launch 2 attacks, one with their blade, one with their other hand (taking WP from you).
If they get caught by the overwatch, they won’t do the 2nd attack with their hand next as the hits will cancel last tiles of movement remaining in their present AP used to do it.
So it has some effect (limited for sure) to slow them down.
After it’s up to you to only do these overwatch at proper distance.
And ofc, it works best with multiple overwatches.
If I do that, I rarely do only one overwatch.
At least 2, if not 3 or 4 must cross each other’s.
There it start to adds up and let these demons hyper exposed just in front of you without being able to hit you first, etc.
It can work frankly, but depends on the circumstances.
Don’t do multiple overwatches if you are already close, that’s for sure.
Anyway in that case, it’s detrimental to play defensive and let them come, so…
Overall, it’s only good to let the enemy melee units close the distance for you if they was too far in the first place.
Plus pummel them a bit on the way, there it works okay… But only in specific circumstances, other than that it’s probably not that useful imo.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by kilen:

Originally posted by UnholyDentist:

Problem is that anything above normal, you will have the enemy run through the overwatch and then attack you. They will take some damage, but not enough to kill or stop them. Then they will injure the knights, which is very bad. The injury system is just too punishing on higher difficulties. It's better to just run away from the enemy.

If you do the overwatch too close of them, sure.
I play legendary and still do it in the circumstances I said above.
It’s just I don’t do it if I am already close to them.
The trick is being distant enough to not be reachable in melee next turn, but close enough to make them enter the overwatch and take some hits.
Plus it can also steal them couple of tiles worth of movement.
Like let say demons have barely enough AP and tiles to launch 2 attacks, one with their blade, one with their other hand (taking WP from you).
If they get caught by the overwatch, they won’t do the 2nd attack with their hand next as the hits will cancel last tiles of movement remaining in their present AP used to do it.
So it has some effect (limited for sure) to slow them down.
After it’s up to you to only do these overwatch at proper distance.
And ofc, it works best with multiple overwatches.
If I do that, I rarely do only one overwatch.
At least 2, if not 3 or 4 must cross each other’s.
There it start to adds up and let these demons hyper exposed just in front of you without being able to hit you first, etc.
It can work frankly, but depends on the circumstances.
Don’t do multiple overwatches if you are already close, that’s for sure.
Anyway in that case, it’s detrimental to play defensive and let them come, so…
Overall, it’s only good to let the enemy melee units close the distance for you if they was too far in the first place.
Plus pummel them a bit on the way, there it works okay… But only in specific circumstances, other than that it’s probably not that useful imo.

Problem is most units are ranged, and there are far more enemies vs your 4 man squad. I find it a better option to use AP to relocate for a better/safer position to prevent injury, than overwatch. Another issue is how the enemy will throw stuff at you, grandes and pin down stuff, will put you in far worse situation until you get swarmed. The only viable scenario I found is, when weak zombies run at you that die from 1 shot. I believe it would be useful for reinforcement warps as well, but those always happen to me when I am busy dealing with enemies, so can't afford to run there and use overwatch, unless the warp opens close by, which never happened.