Incorrect Challenger 1 Accuracy

[Bean]

The CAT performance is relevant for earlier marks of the Challenger 1, it was poor in the competition and there is no defence for the Mk.1 but that's it.

"Although Challenger was the newest tank in CAT 1987, its fire control system remained a generation behind that of Abrams and Leopard 2. (188)"

The Mk.2 and 3 were upgraded so that they weren't ♥♥♥♥.

"a Challenger Improvement Kit was quickly developed and shipped to Saudi Arabia. It included modifications to the power pack, air cleaner, thermal sight, gun control equipment, and new maintenance free batteries. At the Saudi port of Al Jubail, the point of debarkation for the British tanks, dockside workshops were prepared."

"British tank gunnery received considerable attention, partly due to lingering doubts about the Challenger’s accuracy in the wake of CAT 1987. Such doubts were laid to rest."

"In the hands of welltrained crews, the platform proved highly accurate. Before combat operations began, crews routinely managed to place rounds within an 18-inch shot group at 1,200 meters."

"An assessment of British tank engagements found that 54 percent occurred against Iraqi tanks, 22 percent against other armored vehicles, and the rest against an array of personnel and soft targets. Further testimony to Challenger’s accuracy occurred when a crew destroyed a T55 at 4,700 meters. Crews tended not to shoot while moving, instead relying upon the short halt technique that dated back to the days of the Centurion."

https://mcoecbamcoepwprd01.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/library/ebooks/Canadian%20Army%20Trophy%20Book_2018.pdf

According to this game, however, there is no difference between the Chieftain and Challenger Mk.1 with the Challenger 1 Mk.2 and Mk.3 in respect to accuracy.

A 5% accuracy increase isn't going to destroy the balance.

Edit: Typo

[mndbsd]

How about you nerf the others acc by 5%, it won't destroy the balance.

[primeinsurrection]

That happened 9 years after the games setting took place.

[Bean]

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

That happened 9 years after the games setting took place.

4 actually, and PACT already have equipment from a similar time

[Bean]

Originally posted by mndbsd:

How about you nerf the others acc by 5%, it won't destroy the balance.

Because it becomes more annoying for everyone else. Adding a 5% increase for 3 kinds of tank that are present in only 2 battlegroups that have them isn't as big as changing every single battlegroup's tanks too

[DasaKamov]

Challengers 2 and 3 have the same accuracy as other nation's top-tier tanks, even though it's on the cheaper end of the spectrum. Its accuracy is fine as is.

[Pogo]

The complete game is not accurate, shameful after the amount of time developing it.

[Amormaliar]

Originally posted by Bean:

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

That happened 9 years after the games setting took place.

4 actually, and PACT already have equipment from a similar time

Pact can have equipment from such time and NATO can’t (they have different time limits)

[Bean]

Originally posted by Amormaliar:

Originally posted by Bean:

4 actually, and PACT already have equipment from a similar time

Pact can have equipment from such time and NATO can’t (they have different time limits)

They can, there is already equipment for NATO from the 90's but just not as much as PACT (AIM-120 AMRAAM is from the 90's and the same year this upgrade for the Challenger 1 took place too!). It's just not as lenient as PACT, I believe they can get equipment from the 1st Chechen war but NATO can get it from the 1st Iraq war

[Bean]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Challengers 2 and 3 have the same accuracy as other nation's top-tier tanks, even though it's on the cheaper end of the spectrum. Its accuracy is fine as is.

It's 5% less than all of the others, it might not sound a lot but when my tank misses 5 shots on a BMP, that 5% feels a lot better. 5% can make it so that it is a maximum of 20% miss chance compared to 25%.

Britain's tank decks aren't as lenient as PACT's, PACT can bring more T-80's per card, which have the same accuracy. I think a 5% increase will just allow British tanks to be equal to the rest of NATO's (Except France, but hopefully they get the Leclerc so they get a equivalent to a Abrams).

Whilst yes, it is cheaper than the M1A1, its a worse version in every way. Look at its AP power, reload rate and speed.

It deserves its slower reload rate, and speed but not accuracy.

It's not too much of a change, nor is it too radical. At a push I'd want it to be cheaper too, currently it is a worse M1A1 for 5 points less, but that's about it.

[primeinsurrection]

Originally posted by Bean:

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

That happened 9 years after the games setting took place.

4 actually, and PACT already have equipment from a similar time

No...its 10 actually. Might as well add some 5th gen fighter jets and a weather control machine. Would that make you happy?

[Bean]

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

Originally posted by Bean:

4 actually, and PACT already have equipment from a similar time

No...its 10 actually. Might as well add some 5th gen fighter jets and a weather control machine. Would that make you happy?

The 1st gulf war was 91? This game is set in 89?

The source clearly mentions the 90's in the "Challengers vindication" section.

[primeinsurrection]

Originally posted by Bean:

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

No...its 10 actually. Might as well add some 5th gen fighter jets and a weather control machine. Would that make you happy?

The 1st gulf war was 91? This game is set in 89?

The source clearly mentions the 90's in the "Challengers vindication" section.

The Challenger wasnt upgraded until '99.

[Bean]

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

Originally posted by Bean:

The 1st gulf war was 91? This game is set in 89?

The source clearly mentions the 90's in the "Challengers vindication" section.

The Challenger wasnt upgraded until '99.

No. In 1991 it was upgraded for the gulf war. Please read the source. If that's not good enough for you, then even wikipedia says that there was an upgrade for the Mk.2 for the war.

I believe you are getting confused with the Challenger 2

[primeinsurrection]

Originally posted by Bean:

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

The Challenger wasnt upgraded until '99.

No. In 1991 it was upgraded for the gulf war. Please read the source. If that's not good enough for you, then even wikipedia says that there was an upgrade for the Mk.2 for the war.

I believe you are getting confused with the Challenger 2

You are right. I was confused because these were around when I was just a kid, and I read something wrong online.

But they were only upgraded for the war and shipped to Jordan around 91/92 according to what I just read. That is still 2 years early and Jordan isnt in this game anyway.
I dont really see what the issue is. Thermal and longer lasting batteries would not have any effect this game.
And they way it was posted was like he just wanted it in his Canadian regiment, which wasnt even established until 1990 according to the logo at the top of the page. Its not like Canada would have joined in a war anyway.
They showed up the last 5 minutes of the last battle of world war 2 to and still pretend they won the entire war.

[Bean]

Originally posted by primeinsurrection:

But still it says the upgrades were around the same time, likely wouldnt be on a battlefield yet. And I dont see what the big deal is, thermal and longer lasting batteries wouldnt have any effect in this game. That upgrade was only shipped to Jordan, which isnt even in the game. And that was still 2 years after the game.

The page I linked states that there was also upgrades to the gun control systems, this isn't included in the Wikipedia article on Challenger 1, but from the performance of the Challenger 1 Mk.2 (and by extension Mk.3) in Iraq compared to its poor performance in the CAT competition, I believe that there must have been some change to its fire control system.

In regards to it being after the year the game takes place in, Eugen has stated that due to the "march to war" some equipment that was fielded in the 90's is now being used in 1989.

That's why PACT gets the KA-50 and BMD-3, even though they were not in existence in 89.