A solution to the FOB problem

[ontimehelix]

FOB logistics is just busywork right now.

Also, it is the source of endless grief and forum posts.

Stealing supplies, Fighting over supplies, Shooting next to FOBs

Locking FOBs, TKing FOBs

A simple solution: just get rid of FOBs
All these problems go away.

Instead, make it so that supply trucks that are "sold", or "evac" can be recalled, with full supply.

Planes right now, after evac, are repaired and rearmed, and come back as new. Why not make the same for supply vehicles?

What's the difference anyway? Right now, FOBs are at the edge of the map. Supply trucks have to resupply at the edge anyway. You're just making them go a bit further, out of the map, then recall them back.

Now, I'm not saying to replace the whole supply chain. I love the supply chain, it works great. I just hate FOBs.

[CORRIDA]

Originally posted by ontimehelix:

Instead, make it so that supply trucks that are "sold", or "evac" can be recalled, with full supply.

That's one of the few things BA actually does better. I love that idea too.
Especially that a retreat option for damaged units for AG would be neat.

But removing FOB's would be kind of pointless because they added it especially for the community.

I think improving auto supply should be enough.
Like not using roads that are closer to the enemy spawn as the supplied unit or something like that.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by ontimehelix:

What's the difference anyway? Right now, FOBs are at the edge of the map. Supply trucks have to resupply at the edge anyway. You're just making them go a bit further, out of the map, then recall them back.

Infinite supply vs finite supply, that is the difference.

Artillery especially is among those that is specifically meant to consider supply use. Without a finite cache, it becomes something you can fire endlessly without any issues until the end of days. BA is ironically enough a great example of this, because people can effectively freely spam Cruise and Ballistic Missiles without care or worry as they know they physically can never run out of them during a match.

In WARNO, you have to at least balance it out if you want to use your biggest guns on relatively low value targets because you know it is going to cost you supply to rearm. Remove the need to consider that, and Artillery will become even more powerful than it already is, and subsequently more annoying as you can just freely use the previously expensive big guns at anything without care.

Supply is by design meant to be limited, this is also the logic behind AB Divisions. They are meant to have a strong early game, but will slowly drain in supply vs regular Divisions as they lack the FOB and would have to stock up on Logistic Vehicles to maintain their frontline.

[Contentrist]

While I like the idea that supply trucks can return to the battlefield after being sold with a full supply load, Ahriman makes a solid point.
I would love for this to be an official option though, but it's more probable that someone will make a mod like this in the future.

[[EUG] MadMat]

Originally posted by ontimehelix:

A simple solution: just get rid of FOBs

We had no FOB in WARNO's EA .... and people were clamoring for their return (from WRD).

The moment we "simply" remove them, we'll have as much threads about the "Solution to the lack of FOB problem" being to "simply add them back".

So, FOB are there ... here to stay.

[LastTurkInPontus]

What you say would make arty even stronger. No way to see end of enemy arty fire as they can call nearly infinite ammount of supply. Your system would make arty way too strong on team matches

[ontimehelix]

I try hard not to quote Steve Jobs, but there is some wisdom in what he says, sometimes.

'A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them' - Steve

They don't really want FOBs, they just want more resources. Eugen is using FOBs as one way of providing more resources, and capping the max resource limit on the map.

However, if we do the off-map thing, we could use reload timers like with planes, to also limit how much resources they can get, while still providing a source of resupply.

It really would be nice for something to be done about FOBs one way or another - all the FOB problems we have now existed in Red Dragon as well, and it was also terrible back then.

Red Dragon lasted 10 years+, this game might last even longer; if we stay the same we'll have people complaining about TKs and locking FOBs and fighting about resources for another 10+ years.

[RaideR]

You are missing the point
The main drain of supply is arty, then arguably ATGMs
While you cant "spam" atgms because you can't target infantry, buildings or indirect fire, then you more likely run out of valuable targets to shoot at before you run out of fob and supply cards
But arty drain it so fast and most likely with small return on point spent
There is really a two ways to deal with arty, go around and destroy them, which is, well, not a trivial task, or just out maneuver and wait till arty exhausted supply's and will try to hit only what they actually can kill or see
What you are suggesting, its just use arty by kd
So with infinite resources, you'll ask for "simply remove arty" after, or nerf it to the ground, damage or long kd
Be careful with your wishes - someone's quote

[ontimehelix]

Originally posted by RaideR:

You are missing the point
The main drain of supply is arty, then arguably ATGMs
While you cant "spam" atgms because you can't target infantry, buildings or indirect fire, then you more likely run out of valuable targets to shoot at before you run out of fob and supply cards
But arty drain it so fast and most likely with small return on point spent

No, I think several of you complaining that this will make it "infinite resources" is missing the point.

This control mechanic already exists in the game.

Planes right now, have "infinite ammo". So how do they control it? Reload times.

You can do the same for any supply vehicles off map. This limits how much resources they can bring into the map, just the same as planes bringing bombs onto the map.

[RaideR]

Originally posted by ontimehelix:

Originally posted by RaideR:

You are missing the point
The main drain of supply is arty, then arguably ATGMs
While you cant "spam" atgms because you can't target infantry, buildings or indirect fire, then you more likely run out of valuable targets to shoot at before you run out of fob and supply cards
But arty drain it so fast and most likely with small return on point spent

No, I think several of you complaining that this will make it "infinite resources" is missing the point.

This control mechanic already exists in the game.

Planes right now, have "infinite ammo". So how do they control it? Reload times.

You can do the same for any supply vehicles off map. This limits how much resources they can bring into the map, just the same as planes bringing bombs onto the map.

Ok, let's start over
How do you counter arty?

Air can be counterd pretty much easier, with infantry, spaa, helicopters, airplanes
Plus you got a warning all the time

You know what, I'm actually got it, you don't have enough supply for all of your artillery pieces?

[ontimehelix]

Originally posted by RaideR:

Ok, let's start over
How do you counter arty?

Air can be counterd pretty much easier, with infantry, spaa, helicopters, airplanes
Plus you got a warning all the time

You know what, I'm actually got it, you don't have enough supply for all of your artillery pieces?

Firstly, we are discussing replacing FOBs with a mechanic that provides similar amount of resources. Countering arty has noting to do with it.

Secondly, running out of supplies is not a "counter" to arty, it's a "limit" to how much they can shoot. Which, since this mechanic provides a similar amount of resources, there is no change from the status quo.

We're just removing the FOB griefing and FOB stealing and FOB TKing and all that "lovely fun stuff" that gives people endless pain.

[Elder_Forest]

"FOB griefing and FOB stealing and FOB TKing and all that"

Seems the problem is not FOB's it's people.

[RaideR]

Originally posted by ontimehelix:

Originally posted by RaideR:

Ok, let's start over
How do you counter arty?

Air can be counterd pretty much easier, with infantry, spaa, helicopters, airplanes
Plus you got a warning all the time

You know what, I'm actually got it, you don't have enough supply for all of your artillery pieces?

Firstly, we are discussing replacing FOBs with a mechanic that provides similar amount of resources. Countering arty has noting to do with it.

Secondly, running out of supplies is not a "counter" to arty, it's a "limit" to how much they can shoot. Which, since this mechanic provides a similar amount of resources, there is no change from the status quo.

We're just removing the FOB griefing and FOB stealing and FOB TKing and all that "lovely fun stuff" that gives people endless pain.

Yes, it's like now, when you got no use of trucks or supply trucks and you sell them, instead they are going back for resupply ok ok everyone is got that, and you call them back in like aircraft or even if you have to buy them over again
But they will be infinite in nature .... soooooooo......
Or you talking about, like, take a Fob, but it's like, off map 15k supply deposit?
Because your comparison with aircraft's lead people believe that you talking about just a time restriction of use, but not a amount factor
In this case ok i get it.
But if its just as air, no limit
Than it's a bad idea for all those reasons above
You can lose your planes really easy
And supply tracks, well, you barely ever see them, so, yeah, unlimited amount

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by ontimehelix:

No, I think several of you complaining that this will make it "infinite resources" is missing the point.

This control mechanic already exists in the game.

Planes right now, have "infinite ammo". So how do they control it? Reload times.

You can do the same for any supply vehicles off map. This limits how much resources they can bring into the map, just the same as planes bringing bombs onto the map.

You are going to have to look at several minute long 'reload' times for Supply vehicles then. Even the humble UAZ-3151 would have to have a minimum of 5 minute resupply timer to make it reasonable.

I don't know if you have ever actually paid much attention, or looked at, the ammo and refuel timers for aircraft. Those take effectively no time at all. The longest rearming times in the game hover around 6 minutes. What takes a plane out in reality in the game for a very long while is damage. Not to mention that the plane operates in a way that exposes it to danger, especially when it comes to bombers.

Considering that either they'd have to drop the actual amount of supply vehicles players get per card to around 2-4 (like planes), limit heavily how much supply they have per unit, and/or increase their price by a huge margin, the rework it would have to be is not worth the hassle to ensure it doesn't ruin the balance.

For example, say they just waved the magic wand, boom, tomorrow onwards FOBs are gone and all Supply Vehicles work as they are now, but can now recycle. Guess which Divisions have the most dominant supply situation? Reservists and AB Divisions. Why? Because they tend to be the ones with access to effectively flying FOBs. Now they can use these giant Supply Vehicles to tank up their smaller ones, call them back, cycle the new one in, and by the time it is empty, the first one is already primed and ready to come back. End result, infinite supply.

Because you have to take into account the actual numbers and not just say "Just put a timer, lmao". Planes take anywhere between 2-6 minutes to rearm and refuel, but can be knocked out of commission for easily up to 10+ minutes if they get too badly damaged. The only times your supply vehicles would be getting damaged would be if you have major, major skill issue, so it is just the amount of supplies they'd have to wait for.

So now taking into account that you can easily have anywhere between 10-30 Supply Vehicles of different types in your Deck, each now capable of bringing in enough supplies to rearm and refuel your ATGMs, Artillery, and repair damaged vehicles comfortably through a 30 minute match, using AB Divisions as baseline as they currently do not have FOBs so it is the easiest comparison to make, how many seconds should it take for 1 Supply to regen off-map? 1 per second, so it would take 300 seconds for the UAZ for example to resupply, and whooping 33 minutes for a fully emptied Chinook? 2 per second?

Numbers, use them.

[RaideR]

Originally posted by Elder_Forest:

"FOB griefing and FOB stealing and FOB TKing and all that"

Seems the problem is not FOB's it's people.

Was about to say that too
People need to bring their own supply
15k per fob, 3 cards of tracks its 33k, more than you need for 60 minutes in 10v10
Problem, many players just don't bother to bring their own trucks, needless to say fobs

[ontimehelix]

Originally posted by RaideR:

Originally posted by Elder_Forest:

"FOB griefing and FOB stealing and FOB TKing and all that"

Seems the problem is not FOB's it's people.

Was about to say that too
People need to bring their own supply
15k per fob, 3 cards of tracks its 33k, more than you need for 60 minutes in 10v10
Problem, many players just don't bother to bring their own trucks, needless to say fobs

Well yeah, some of us have been talking about this for 10+ years (since Red Dragon). I really don't want to talk about it for another 10 years.

Game designers can't really fix people, but they can reduce the chances of "negative player interactions", and FOBs are a huge source of such bad interactions.

What is the single biggest source of TKs? FOB rage.