Are infantry sill terribly represented?

[Badass_Ben]

Being spotted and annihilated wholesale from 1000m distance.

With close combat being an after-throught, rather than a necessity?
Infantry with anything less than POWERFUL AT being completely demolished in woods by tanks.

Infantry having so little survival they cannot even transfer between cover before an entire squad being wiped?

[Brother Pedro]

If that's your problem then yes, it's still the same.

There is no change to stealth (in fact, many types of recon is now way cheaper, leading to more recon on the field). Close combat bonus is in fact decreased, but activation range increased. No matter, I almost never see people deliberately use close combat bonus.

I almost never see people do any sort of spacing micro in forest, so yes, their infantry with ♥♥♥♥♥♥ AT4 will fail to kill a single tank that just attack moving into forest.

I see smoke SOMETIME, I guess, and people timing movement with covering unit, but infantry moving in the open will still suffer crippling damage if they move under fire.

[KPSoulReaper]

Yes.

Another reason why I am looking forward to Broken Arrow.

As I said they should call this game "World of Miniature Tanks."
We can use the following: "WOMTO"
You Womto play a cheesy spammy frustrating strategy game.....

[Murgs]

Originally posted by Jsopasas:

Yes.

Another reason why I am looking forward to Broken Arrow.

As I said they should call this game "World of Miniature Tanks."
We can use the following: "WOMTO"
You Womto play a cheesy spammy frustrating strategy game.....

Two completely different games, they play differently and one seems more like an arcade game, since death isn't permanent, and yet, everyone seems to compare them.

BA has issues, which is why they keep pushing off the delivery date - you may be in for a long, boring wait.

In my opinion, what you are suffering from, isn't a game issue, it's a skill one.

Infantry has it's place, you just need to know how to use it.

[Kaiser der goldenen Sonne]

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

Being spotted and annihilated wholesale from 1000m distance.

With close combat being an after-throught, rather than a necessity?
Infantry with anything less than POWERFUL AT being completely demolished in woods by tanks.

Infantry having so little survival they cannot even transfer between cover before an entire squad being wiped?

I mean, it depends on the map you play. Some maps have very thick and wide forest areas. When you go into those areas without flamers or shock troops... or even A move a tank into those, you will lose everything instantly.

Also sniping enemy recon helicopters will greatly improve your stealth play, because ground recon can´t look 500m into deep forest.

[Rabidnid]

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

Being spotted and annihilated wholesale from 1000m distance.

With close combat being an after-throught, rather than a necessity?
Infantry with anything less than POWERFUL AT being completely demolished in woods by tanks.

Infantry having so little survival they cannot even transfer between cover before an entire squad being wiped?

Being wiped by what? The way cohesion works they will be pinned and slowly atritted in the open if receiving a lot of fire, the idea is you suppress the enemy so they can move about in the open.

I have infantry in the open all the time but they are backed up with IFVs and tanks so anything firing at them is in turn engaged.

[Murgs]

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

I have infantry in the open all the time but they are backed up with IFVs and tanks so anything firing at them is in turn engaged.

Armour supports troops, which support the armour in return - almost symbiotic. Arty supports both with smoke and suppressing HE.

However, it doesn't matter what one does, if one's recon is shoddy. - Oops, didn't see that one coming....!

[Rabidnid]

Originally posted by Murgs:

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

I have infantry in the open all the time but they are backed up with IFVs and tanks so anything firing at them is in turn engaged.

Armour supports troops, which support the armour in return - almost symbiotic. Arty supports both with smoke and suppressing HE.

However, it doesn't matter what one does, if one's recon is shoddy. - Oops, didn't see that one coming....!

Which is what GSR is for, though the infantry are close enough to see anything that fires.

[CORRIDA]

Weird, i think infantry is rather strong compared to its real life counterpart.
They got hp equivalent of their squad size(up to 14), and even a tank shot only deals 1 dmg, even on open ground.(even less if the target is in a forest or building)

A tank within reach usually gets stunlocked by any at weapons and if they got more ap, they can easily destroy that tank.

If you think inf is weak here, you better not play SDII.

[Badass_Ben]

Originally posted by CORRIDA:

Weird, i think infantry is rather strong compared to its real life counterpart.
They got hp equivalent of their squad size(up to 14), and even a tank shot only deals 1 dmg, even on open ground.(even less if the target is in a forest or building)

A tank within reach usually gets stunlocked by any at weapons and if they got more ap, they can easily destroy that tank.

If you think inf is weak here, you better not play SDII.

A Squad with LAWs is helpless against a T80 in close-range combat, that isnt realistic.

Infantry can be spotted, EXACTLY, down to the MAN, at 1000m distance, that is not realistic.

Tank main guns are NOT effective against infantry (the exception being infantry in structures and fortifications), coaxial and other machine guns are actually SUPERIOR for engaging infantry IRL.

A tank should not be able to fire its gun at MAX rof and be sniping individual soldiers on every shot.

Tanks should be damn near COMPLETELY blind to infantry in close combat, yet in game they detect close range infantry AT THE SAME TIME infantry can detect the tank.

We can see PLENTY of examples of this in any modern conflict.

MOST shooting at infantry is not shooting "at" infantry, but rather, shooting at areas and locations infantry presence is expected, as you rarely "See" the individual enemy soldier (if they are competent).

Its why in combat running out of ammo is a constant, yet in game, units RARELY run out of ammo (ATGM's not withstanding)

[Uncle_Joe]

The core issue IMO is 'borg spotting' which means that if ANY unit spots an enemy, ALL units can spot that enemy. So yes, tanks 1000m away can bring effective fire on infantry skulking in the woods as long as they have another unit near by the target to keep it 'spotted'.

Also, all infantry in a 'squad' are all considered to be in the same location in a little huddle. They can't disperse along a line or into cover. So they stay in a concentrated mass for being attacked and it means that a single squad can't ever flank a tank that drives forward into them.

But at the end of the day, it's an abstraction of modern combat. It's not a simulation so for what it is, it works.

[Badass_Ben]

Originally posted by Uncle_Joe:

The core issue IMO is 'borg spotting' which means that if ANY unit spots an enemy, ALL units can spot that enemy. So yes, tanks 1000m away can bring effective fire on infantry skulking in the woods as long as they have another unit near by the target to keep it 'spotted'.

Also, all infantry in a 'squad' are all considered to be in the same location in a little huddle. They can't disperse along a line or into cover. So they stay in a concentrated mass for being attacked and it means that a single squad can't ever flank a tank that drives forward into them.

But at the end of the day, it's an abstraction of modern combat. It's not a simulation so for what it is, it works.

I agree with the first part, spotting is a HUGE issue.

But disagree with the last, there are easy ways to fix it using IN-GAME mechanics.

For example, we have "partially spotted" already, where you "See" a unit but it isnt identified.

Infantry should remain partially spotted UNTIL close combat.
Partially spotted infantry should take suppression damage, sure, but almost ZERO HP damage (Massive HE weapons being an exception)

(This represents an infantry presence being detected and units can fire on said "area", but the spot is not accurate enough to actually target "soldiers")

This means that you can suppress infantry from a distance, but to kill them you HAVE to close the distance to close range.

Give tanks a "blind field" within a short distance, where Tanks CANNOT see anything of "very small" unit size for themselves (Again, requiring proper infantry support for tanks and vehicles in woods)


The net result is you get, instead of sniping infantry positions with tanks from miles away, then moving up once all infantry is dead (not sure how someone would ever know that from a distance)

You get a system where you need to achieve fire superiority to suppress, which you then send your own infantry to close the distance and actually kill enemy infantry.



I also think the idea of representing infantry as all huddled into one spot, is as misrepresenting as having a Tank's rear armor count as the front armor. Its entirely asinine.

Infantry spacing is BASIC BASIC BASIC training.

I think in close combat as well, infantry AT should be able to roll against "side armor" (regardless of the direction the tank is facing) as thats what the soldier with the anti-tank weapons would be doing, not just dumping it into the front armor of a tank that can magically know where the AT guy is at all times.

[Uncle_Joe]

I would love to see more nuanced infantry behavior and combat. Even SD2's infantry felt 'better' than WARNO's (they accumulated suppression until they were pinned, then they had to retreat to unpin and they took significantly less damage while pinned or retreating).

But Eugen was walking a line between the SD crowd and old Wargame crowd. So they have sort of a hybrid system instead. Earlier on the development, infantry was MUCH harder to root out and kill (90% damage reduction in buildings and 50% in woods). And HE values in general were lower (with lower splash) which made infantry more resilient even in the open.

And that led to the 'zombie' meta where piles of infantry could just walk WW1-style across open areas and vehicles had to retreat before the tide. It was quite silly when taken to the extremes (which, of course, is exactly what players will do).

They had plenty of options to correct the issue but this is the one they went with. Some people will like it, others will hate it and most will be ambivalent. I don't like infantry being vaporized at 1000+ meters by direct fire but I've adapted to it when I play. I don't think there will be any major revamps to the core infantry/tank interactions at this point until the next major redesign of the game (WARNO:2 or whatever they come up with).

[KPSoulReaper]

Originally posted by Murgs:

Originally posted by Jsopasas:

Yes.

Another reason why I am looking forward to Broken Arrow.

As I said they should call this game "World of Miniature Tanks."
We can use the following: "WOMTO"
You Womto play a cheesy spammy frustrating strategy game.....

Two completely different games, they play differently and one seems more like an arcade game, since death isn't permanent, and yet, everyone seems to compare them.

BA has issues, which is why they keep pushing off the delivery date - you may be in for a long, boring wait.

In my opinion, what you are suffering from, isn't a game issue, it's a skill one.

Infantry has it's place, you just need to know how to use it.

Negative little one.

Infantry have a place in WOMTO and it's called the "Backseat Passenger."
Not as enjoyable as riding up front, but still along for the ride.

BA and WOMTO are not two "completely different games," they are similar strategy games with a different flavor---> Like comparing an Over-hyped McDonald's Burger to a Juicy Steak Burger from Mom&Pop's Dinner.
---With your level of pro-infantry intelligence & skills within WOMTO I am surprised you do not see the similarities.

LOL---> people always using the skill issue, I love it.

I enjoy watching BA MP Videos more than playing Vanilla WOMTO atm (mods baby.)
The wait will be worth it, although most of us would love early access.

Anyways, I am off to the Low Level Infantry Peasant Lands to "Till the ground" in preparation for an awesome Broken Arrow Reaping of the Harvest.

[KPSoulReaper]

Originally posted by Uncle_Joe:

The core issue IMO is 'borg spotting' which means that if ANY unit spots an enemy, ALL units can spot that enemy. So yes, tanks 1000m away can bring effective fire on infantry skulking in the woods as long as they have another unit near by the target to keep it 'spotted'.

Also, all infantry in a 'squad' are all considered to be in the same location in a little huddle. They can't disperse along a line or into cover. So they stay in a concentrated mass for being attacked and it means that a single squad can't ever flank a tank that drives forward into them.

But at the end of the day, it's an abstraction of modern combat. It's not a simulation so for what it is, it works.

So agreed Uncle Joe.

One of the most frustrating aspects of WOMTO is the "League of Justice Spotting" ability for recon units.

Broken Arrow was a was a huge surprise & so much more enjoyable with the use of the Recon Units and spotting in general / you have to work for the benefit and it pays off.

[Badass_Ben]

Originally posted by Uncle_Joe:

I would love to see more nuanced infantry behavior and combat. Even SD2's infantry felt 'better' than WARNO's (they accumulated suppression until they were pinned, then they had to retreat to unpin and they took significantly less damage while pinned or retreating).

But Eugen was walking a line between the SD crowd and old Wargame crowd. So they have sort of a hybrid system instead. Earlier on the development, infantry was MUCH harder to root out and kill (90% damage reduction in buildings and 50% in woods). And HE values in general were lower (with lower splash) which made infantry more resilient even in the open.

And that led to the 'zombie' meta where piles of infantry could just walk WW1-style across open areas and vehicles had to retreat before the tide. It was quite silly when taken to the extremes (which, of course, is exactly what players will do).

They had plenty of options to correct the issue but this is the one they went with. Some people will like it, others will hate it and most will be ambivalent. I don't like infantry being vaporized at 1000+ meters by direct fire but I've adapted to it when I play. I don't think there will be any major revamps to the core infantry/tank interactions at this point until the next major redesign of the game (WARNO:2 or whatever they come up with).

Honestly, the high TTK time on infantry was perfect.

All that was needed was reduced movement speeds, based on cohesion. With fully suppressed infantry having 0 movement. I would also argue for STEEPER aim/accuracy penalties at max cohesion. A fully suppressed unit should do MINIMAL damage to a unit advancing on it.