FAQ - Why no Soviet T-72 division?

[[EUG] MadMat]

Because the game focuses on WW3 in Germany ... and there was no Soviet T-72 in Germany.
Soviet tank units in GSVG (Group of Soviet Forces in Germany, that is NORTHAG and CENTAG) were "tip of the spear", and they were equipped with the finest tanks USSR had. CENTAG mostly saw T-80B/BV opposing them, while NORTHAG had a mix of T-64 variants and some T-80B/BV.

T-72 wasn't consider a good tank by USSR and was mostly made for export to other WP countries, or use by Soviet second lines troops. Only Soviet T-72-equipped units in Central Europe were in CGV (Czechoslovakia) or back home in USSR territory.

T-72 wasn't a main Soviet tank, it is a main post-Cold War Russian one. After the fall of the Soviet Union, T-80 production was discontinued (spread too much) in favor of the T-72 for economies of scale. The T-72 factory is absolutely gigantic, in prime years it could make 1200 tanks per year every year on 6 production lanes.

[Ahriman]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

It did age like milk because a) they're adding a Soviet T-72 battlegroup and b) it was a Soviet MBT, which they claimed it wasn't.

A) Until now, this thread had to be kept up because people were constantly asking for T-72 Divisions, thus it has not 'aged', because its contents remain factual as to the reasoning. The reason always was that T-72s did not make their way to frontline Guards Divisions according to Soviet Organisation. Now we get the first non-frontline Soviet Division, thus the reasoning has not changed.

B) The word specifically used by MadMat is "main Soviet tank", this is not the same as Main BATTLE Tank. This specifically refers to it not being their main line tank, which is 110% factual. The main line tanks for the Soviets, especially their frontline Guards Units, were the T-64 or the T-80. The T-72 was to be the wartime production model to replace the T-64 during war, as the T-64 was too expensive to produce during wartime.

This is a direct quote from the US Army Manual for the Soviet TOE from June 1991 in regards to the T-72:

The Soviets have used the T-64 only in forward-deployed Soviet units. However, they use the T-72 within the USSR and export it to non-Soviet Warsaw Pact armies and several other countries.

To the Soviets, the T-72 was an inferior model of the T-64 in terms of quality. They were parallel designs with the intention that the T-64 would be the quality tank used in frontline units, and the T-72 the high-production tank used to be exported and used in the garrison units.

It was not until the fall of the Soviet Union that Russia adopted the T-72 as its main line tank, as the T-64 was too expensive to produce, and the T-80 had other issues, and also was too expensive, so they went with the cheapest option, the T-72.

[xenon]

^ Yeah I've already explained before why those memes were nothing but half-truths or straight up lies. Even dump like Wikipedia has the following to say:

"However, by 1971, even Ustinov was growing tired of problems with the T-64.[25] In an unclear political process[32] decree number 326-113 was issued, which allowed the production of Object 172 in the Soviet Union from 1 January 1972, and freed Uralvagonzavod from the T-64A production.[33]"

Sorry komrad, T-72 was an MBT and in many ways superior to T-64 simply on reliability alone. The fact that they've built more T-72s for their own army than T-64 and T-80 combined seals the deal, and they kept modernising T-72 until it turned into T-90. T-64 had too many issues, T-80 was too expensive but had advantages over T-72. That's why both T-72 and T-80 stayed on the production line during USSR times. USSR alone built about 25,000 T-72s. End of story.

[Ahriman]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

^ Yeah I've already explained before why those memes were nothing but half-truths or straight up lies. Even dump like Wikipedia has the following to say:

"However, by 1971, even Ustinov was growing tired of problems with the T-64.[25] In an unclear political process[32] decree number 326-113 was issued, which allowed the production of Object 172 in the Soviet Union from 1 January 1972, and freed Uralvagonzavod from the T-64A production.[33]"

Sorry komrad, T-72 was an MBT and in many ways superior to T-64 simply on reliability alone. The fact that they've built more T-72s for their own army than T-64 and T-80 combined seals the deal, and they kept modernising T-72 until it turned into T-90. T-64 had too many issues, T-80 was too expensive but had advantages over T-72. That's why both T-72 and T-80 stayed on the production line during USSR times. USSR alone built about 25,000 T-72s. End of story.

And yet...

The T-64 mainly served with Soviet tank units in northern East Germany that were part of the 2nd Guards Tank Army, the 3rd Army, and the 20th Guards Army, although it began to be phased out and replaced by the newer T-80BV/T-80U before Soviet troops were withdrawn from Germany in the late 1980s and early 1990s. However, when the Soviet troops withdrew from Germany, two divisions and the 6th Separate Guards Motor Rifle Brigade still operated the T-64.

Please present the class with >>Soviet<< Armoured Divisions (or Brigades) that were stationed in East Germany that were equipped with T-72s to prove your point.

Production numbers matter a whooping 0 in this, because it is the allocation where they go that does. The T-72s shipped to Germany went to the East Germans. They were not assigned to the frontline units.

You can continue to repeatedly try to proclaim whatever you want about the T-72, but until you present us with a source that indicates >>SOVIET<< units stationed in East Germany in '88/'89 that fielded the T-72, your statements remain irrelevant to the point.

[Aegmar]

Ahriman님이 먼저 게시:

The T-90 is basically just a rebranded T-72 for this reason, in order to avoid the bad reputation the T-72 had among the Soviets/Russians, as it still is very similar to the T-72 in many ways, the primary changes being modernized systems, partially from the T-80 itself.

Yes, including the whole TURRET of the T-80U, thats why it was originally designated the T-72BU (because chassis of the T-72B combined with the Turret of the T-80U, among additional gadgets added later).

So saying the T-90 its "just" a rebranded T-72 is not entirely correct.

It of course has the same flaws as all russian tanks..., mainly the tendency to explode and send the turret into space after the first penetrating hit.

[xenon]

T-90 is not a rebrand, stop with the memes. It's a natural progression from T-72 modernisation. The turret is new, the engine is new but at its core it's still a T-72. Just look at its suspension and hull.

Guess which tank got pulled from the production lines because it was simply too problematic? It has 64 in it.

Russian tanks "send turrets to space" because they have HE rounds in their autoloader carousel. They don't explode because of a penetrating hit, pure nonsense. They use a solution to remove the need of a loader, which makes it less expensive, make the tank profile lower and more compact. It of course has drawbacks, such as detonations and cannot really upgrade their APDSFS because of the length constraints.

Do you think Western tanks would fair better if they loaded their hulls and turrets to the brim with HE rounds? You have to be naive and simply don't pay attention to, lets say, war in Ukraine. A Challenger 2 threw its turret, I wonder why? Which shell type could possibly cause this? Hmm hmm... could it be HESH?

[LastTurkInPontus]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

T-90 is not a rebrand, stop with the memes. It's a natural progression from T-72 modernisation. The turret is new, the engine is new but at its core it's still a T-72. Just look at its suspension and hull.

Guess which tank got pulled from the production lines because it was simply too problematic? It has 64 in it.

Russian tanks "send turrets to space" because they have HE rounds in their autoloader carousel. They don't explode because of a penetrating hit, pure nonsense. They use a solution to remove the need of a loader, which makes it less expensive, make the tank profile lower and more compact. It of course has drawbacks, such as detonations and cannot really upgrade their APDSFS because of the length constraints.

Do you think Western tanks would fair better if they loaded their hulls and turrets to the brim with HE rounds? You have to be naive and simply don't pay attention to, lets say, war in Ukraine. A Challenger 2 threw its turret, I wonder why? Which shell type could possibly cause this? Hmm hmm... could it be HESH?

T-64 Production was mostly at Ukrainian SSR. Guess why its production stopped after fall of USSR and slowed after same factory started production of T-80U and UD! T-72B came at same time and so it was the reasone , right? Wrong

[xenon]

What do you think UVZ was doing all this time from the 60s?

T-64 wasn't stopped because USSR collapsed. It stopped BEFORE the collapse. Taken off the UVZ conveyor belt in the 70s, and completely removed in the 80s. A grand total of 13k were produced, compared to T-72 that

a) started production about 10 years later
b) still outproduced both T-64 and T-80 combined
c) was selected as the only viable platform for further evolution

Ukraine on its own tried to modernize T-64...and only produced a HANDFUL, plus the end result turned out to be a mess. I wonder why?

Ahriman님이 먼저 게시:

You can continue to repeatedly try to proclaim whatever you want about the T-72, but until you present us with a source that indicates >>SOVIET<< units stationed in East Germany in '88/'89 that fielded the T-72, your statements remain irrelevant to the point.

What is this piece of nonsense and the goal post moving? Never did I claim such a ridiculous thing. Stop imagining things and start paying attention. The only people typing absolute incoherence here is your little T-64 fanclub.

Btw you can count East German as Soviet/Communist, you even have 2 battlegroups in game which are S tier. East German battlegroups are the closest you can get to 3rd Armored. What the hell is your even point?

[Amormaliar]

Aegmar님이 먼저 게시:

It of course has the same flaws as all russian tanks..., mainly the tendency to explode and send the turret into space after the first penetrating hit.

Nah, turret space program is only for earlier T-series. Even on T-80 it’s not flying afaik

[Ahriman]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

What is this piece of nonsense and the goal post moving? Never did I claim such a ridiculous thing. Stop imagining things and start paying attention. The only people typing absolute incoherence here is your little T-64 fanclub.

It's actually trying to teach you basic reading comprehension, which you seem to struggle with quite notably.

You claimed that MadMat referred to the T-72 as a not an MBT, which is false. He never said this. The called it specifically a main line tank. This entire argument started because you can't understand the difference between the words "Line" and "Battle".

[xenon]

"T-72 wasn't a main Soviet tank, it is a main post-Cold War Russian one."
"T-72 wasn't consider a good tank by USSR"

I understand that incoherence is your strongest suit so just leave it at that.

[Ahriman]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

"T-72 wasn't a main Soviet tank, it is a main post-Cold War Russian one."
"T-72 wasn't consider a good tank by USSR"

I understand that incoherence is your strongest suit so just leave it at that.

So let me ask a small follow up question.

What do you consider the Guards units to be? The more prime units of the Soviet Union or Second Rate units?

Then a follow up question should you respond correctly.

Why didn't they put the T-72 into their Guards Divisions stationed in Germany if they rated so high?

[xenon]

Ahriman님이 먼저 게시:

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

"T-72 wasn't a main Soviet tank, it is a main post-Cold War Russian one."
"T-72 wasn't consider a good tank by USSR"

I understand that incoherence is your strongest suit so just leave it at that.

So let me ask a small follow up question.

What do you consider the Guards units to be? The more prime units of the Soviet Union or Second Rate units?

Then a follow up question should you respond correctly.

Why didn't they put the T-72 into their Guards Divisions stationed in Germany if they rated so high?

It's funny how you're asking me questions, yet every single time I asked a question... you just gish gallop somewhere else. Where did I claim that "ThErE WeRe SoViEt t-72 StAtIoNeD In GeRmAnY"? Can you answer that one first? And as a "follow up", can you maybe explain to me why "T-72 Is LeSsEr T-64"? Or maybe "SoViEts ThOuGhT iT wAs LesSeR" (I especially like this one, because according to memers like you the Ministry of Defense Dmitry Ustinov was full of crap when he got fed up with T-64s and their problems all the way back in the 70s).

I've already explained exactly why T-64s were mostly put in Germany. It has something to do with having 10 years more time in production than T-72, it has something to do with Kharkov being much closer to Berlin than Nizhny is, it has something to do with politics and the fact that Soviet Union had 3 MBTs and 3 different CB doing essentially the same thing. Unless you somehow came to some insane conclusion that all that time and effort would somehow go "POOF", and then T-64s would just disappear somewhere?

But I'm glad you brought up "eLiTe DiViSiOns". Eugen is adding Tamanskaya Division. Is it Elite enough for you? How about Kantemirovskaya, is that Elite or just a bunch of raw recruits? How about the 1st Tank Divison, part of 11th Guards Army... Guess which tanks they used. They weren't stationed in Germany, but maybe you can stop spewing incoherence for just 2 seconds, and start asking logical questions.

I think the most hilarious thing you can do is look up Zapad-81 and just watch. Pay close attention, don't day dream about "GuArDs iN GeRmOnEy" and "Muh T-64", just watch.

Anyways that's that, SoViEt T-72 is being added, it's an MBT, OP aged like milk, the end.

[DasaKamov]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

OP aged like milk, the end.

"It's a bad thing that the devs listened to community feedback and wllowed the players to vote for a non-canon Nemesis division that will only be playable in Skirmish and MP games"

[xenon]

^ I can't wait for that to happen. Cope more.

[DasaKamov]

xenon님이 먼저 게시:

Cope more.

Wut