FAQ - Why no Soviet T-72 division?

[[EUG] MadMat]

Because the game focuses on WW3 in Germany ... and there was no Soviet T-72 in Germany.
Soviet tank units in GSVG (Group of Soviet Forces in Germany, that facing NORTHAG and CENTAG) were "tip of the spear", and they were equipped with the finest tanks USSR had. CENTAG mostly saw T-80B/BV opposing them, while NORTHAG had a mix of T-64 variants and some T-80B/BV.

T-72 wasn't consider a good tank by USSR and was mostly made for export to other WP countries, or use by Soviet second lines troops. Only Soviet T-72-equipped units in Central Europe were in CGV (Czechoslovakia) or back home in USSR territory.

T-72 wasn't a main Soviet tank, it is a main post-Cold War Russian one. After the fall of the Soviet Union, T-80 production was discontinued (spread too much) in favor of the T-72 for economies of scale. The T-72 factory is absolutely gigantic, in prime years it could make 1200 tanks per year every year on 6 production lanes.

[Ahriman]

Nguyên văn bởi Drug Tino:

They mentioned them being in Czechoslovakia so I'll even bet on SOUTHAG DLC at the earliest.

Should also note that Czechs used the tank extensively, having their own domestic production for it to boot. When people want T-72s, it is the Czechs they'll have to wait for to see them get used in proper Divisions.

Nguyên văn bởi PirateMan:

So you're saying the Soviets would not ship their fleets of T72s by rail because they are trash meant for reserves units? But then you guys already went ahead and added trash reservists formations for the US that must have been shipped over by plane or ship? This makes zero sense.

As Drug Tino already explained, the answer to your question is yes, the Soviets wouldn't ship their inland stores of T-72s for reservists when they had piles of T-62s still lying around all over East Germany in depots for the very same reason the US and UK had piles of M60s and Centurions in West Germany. Only an absolutely madman would ignore prepared reserves of vehicles, with all their fuel, ammunition and spare parts, already neatly stored up just to ship a mildly better tank to replace them, instead of using all of those first, and then when there is actual space for the mildly better tank, start shipping that in.

It takes a huge amount of time shipping thousands of tanks and all their necessary supplies, a lot more compared to just shipping a bunch of National Guard overseas where all of their equipment is waiting already. The notable difference that should be considered as well is the sheer distance and logistical difference between the US and the Soviets in the case of reserves.

For the US, if things go badly wrong and Soviets end up rolling through the main units in West Germany, if that is when you start mobilising reserves, it is already far too late. Shipping them over the Atlantic will take time, weeks of valuable time. For the Soviets, this is not even remotely as bad. If they need emergency reserves, they can ship them fast via rail from Soviet mainland through Poland into East Germany, especially if the equipment is already waiting for them.

So obviously the US planned for this. In case of open war, they'd ship the reservist units immediately to act as a blocking action in the worst possible case to buy time for the heavy hitters to come across, with most of their equipment still sitting in the US. It's the reason we don't have Marines for example in Germany. While they enjoy the same thing as the 101st, where their full Division level deployment time is measured in just over a month, their equipment is stored up in Norway and the Med. To move those over to Germany would take longer than their intended deployment, thus why we aren't seeing them here either. They were earmarked for Norway, much like most of the other Marine divisions, including the Royal Marines.

There is an entire ocean between the US and Europe, there is a functional railway between the Soviet Union and East Germany, to summarise this. The equipment for both sides reserves are already stored up and waiting all over Germany on their respective sides of the border, and for the Soviets, this is not T-72s, those were meant for internal use.

[eaglenine2]

Due to the Divisional system and WWIII has been that long so the ingame divisions would not gotten T-72 as replacements or deployed with T-72. The nearest Soviet division which were equipped with T-72 are either in Czechoslovakia or USSR.

[UKVAULTMAN]

What a glorious answer Eugen. Smooth brains go back to Wargame: Red Dragon.

[晓汐Akatsukishio]

Perhaps we can expect Eugen to distribute the various army groups of the Soviet Interior Military District, such as the 5th Guards Tank Army in Bobruysk. These divisions in the Inland Military region can obviously satisfy everyone's T-72 preference. Of course, we'll have to wait for Eugen to cram these divisions into some DLC...... The CGF may be able to provide these lovely tanks sooner, like the "Boleslav Tactical Group" in Regiment. to be honest, for personal reasons, I would love to see the mighty 72B Obr.1989 in these battle groups, and perhaps "March to war" could provide them with an opportunity to appear

[ForsakenSco]

neat wee link for some of you https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/East_Germany/Nationale-Volksarmee.php

[BigD]

Thanks for making this FAQ, I've been having this T-72 discussion endlessly.

[Казак]

I don't mean to semi revive this, but a lot a people are saying here that the T-72 is like a leagues worse tank than the T-64. It's not, the Soviets did consider it a wartime model and a downgrade to the T-64, but the T-72 has a laser rangefinder, the T-64A does not. (Just because it was a slightly newer design, but even by the late 80s there are T-64s that have not yet been upgraded to T-64B standard.)

And the T-72 that would likely appear in future DLC, the T-72B, is better than the T-64A and still a really good tank. It has a slightly worse Fire Control System than the T-64B but other than that, the T-72B is on par with it, definitely not just slightly better than a T-62M.

It's not untrue that the T-64 and T-80 are the more "elite" tanks, but people waaaaay overestimate the gap of quality between T-64/T-80 and T-72. The truth is the T-72 could have done all roles well, if they invested in it earlier, but they were each from different design companies with different unique and competing ideas. I say this as someone who's favorite tank is the T-64B

[Ahriman]

Nguyên văn bởi Казак:

I don't mean to semi revive this, but a lot a people are saying here that the T-72 is like a leagues worse tank than the T-64. It's not, the Soviets did consider it a wartime model and a downgrade to the T-64, but the T-72 has a laser rangefinder, the T-64A does not. (Just because it was a slightly newer design, but even by the late 80s there are T-64s that have not yet been upgraded to T-64B standard.)

And the T-72 that would likely appear in future DLC, the T-72B, is better than the T-64A and still a really good tank. It has a slightly worse Fire Control System than the T-64B but other than that, the T-72B is on par with it, definitely not just slightly better than a T-62M.

It's not untrue that the T-64 and T-80 are the more "elite" tanks, but people waaaaay overestimate the gap of quality between T-64/T-80 and T-72. The truth is the T-72 could have done all roles well, if they invested in it earlier, but they were each from different design companies with different unique and competing ideas. I say this as someone who's favorite tank is the T-64B

Well, obviously, but you have to consider this entirely from the very thing you yourself even said. The Soviets didn't think of this at the time, they considered it the downgraded model, so it wouldn't make sense for the Soviets to suddenly start thinking the exact opposite.

No one disagrees that the T-72 wouldn't be a good tank or useful addition, and that's why we are getting it in plenty of the Non-Soviet Divisions, just not Soviet Divisions as they wouldn't use it.

[TOMCATTER]

Nguyên văn bởi Казак:

I don't mean to semi revive this, but a lot a people are saying here that the T-72 is like a leagues worse tank than the T-64. It's not, the Soviets did consider it a wartime model and a downgrade to the T-64, but the T-72 has a laser rangefinder, the T-64A does not. (Just because it was a slightly newer design, but even by the late 80s there are T-64s that have not yet been upgraded to T-64B standard.)

And the T-72 that would likely appear in future DLC, the T-72B, is better than the T-64A and still a really good tank. It has a slightly worse Fire Control System than the T-64B but other than that, the T-72B is on par with it, definitely not just slightly better than a T-62M.

It's not untrue that the T-64 and T-80 are the more "elite" tanks, but people waaaaay overestimate the gap of quality between T-64/T-80 and T-72. The truth is the T-72 could have done all roles well, if they invested in it earlier, but they were each from different design companies with different unique and competing ideas. I say this as someone who's favorite tank is the T-64B

Looks like propaganda from uralvagonzavod.

[Казак]

Nguyên văn bởi TOMCATTER:

Nguyên văn bởi Казак:

I don't mean to semi revive this, but a lot a people are saying here that the T-72 is like a leagues worse tank than the T-64. It's not, the Soviets did consider it a wartime model and a downgrade to the T-64, but the T-72 has a laser rangefinder, the T-64A does not. (Just because it was a slightly newer design, but even by the late 80s there are T-64s that have not yet been upgraded to T-64B standard.)

And the T-72 that would likely appear in future DLC, the T-72B, is better than the T-64A and still a really good tank. It has a slightly worse Fire Control System than the T-64B but other than that, the T-72B is on par with it, definitely not just slightly better than a T-62M.

It's not untrue that the T-64 and T-80 are the more "elite" tanks, but people waaaaay overestimate the gap of quality between T-64/T-80 and T-72. The truth is the T-72 could have done all roles well, if they invested in it earlier, but they were each from different design companies with different unique and competing ideas. I say this as someone who's favorite tank is the T-64B

Looks like propaganda from uralvagonzavod.

LOL no, like I said I like the T-64 better, but objectively the T-72B isn't far behind. That's the whole point of it, it can fire same ATGMs, better armor than T-72A and the ability to mount ERA bricks like the T-64BV. The only thing that's worse is the FCS and that's more Uralvagonzavod not having a good FCS vs a deliberate attempt to cheapen the product. Technically, the T-72B is a better choice too as the slightly larger size compared to the T-64 lets it carry more modern shells and gives it a longer future for more upgrades, in addition to the increased reliability.

If you want more information, read this excellent series dissecting the vehicle.
https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/t-72-soviet-progeny.html

[NotEven]

T-72 was the "mass tank" supporting tank, it was think more for "second phase" offensives, T-62 and T-80 were the true vanguard "first phase" offensive tanks for the USSR

[LastTurkInPontus]

Nguyên văn bởi NotEven:

T-72 was the "mass tank" supporting tank, it was think more for "second phase" offensives, T-62 and T-80 were the true vanguard "first phase" offensive tanks for the USSR

I think you meant T-64 , not T-62

[molnibalage]

Nguyên văn bởi NotEven:

T-72 was the "mass tank" supporting tank, it was think more for "second phase" offensives, T-62 and T-80 were the true vanguard "first phase" offensive tanks for the USSR

Ok, the price of the tanks is very helpful to clear out this "second line mass tank" myth...

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/view.php?filename=5692021_09_03_11_50_44_Wi.jpg

[Казак]

Nguyên văn bởi molnibalage:

Nguyên văn bởi NotEven:

T-72 was the "mass tank" supporting tank, it was think more for "second phase" offensives, T-62 and T-80 were the true vanguard "first phase" offensive tanks for the USSR

Ok, the price of the tanks is very helpful to clear out this "second line mass tank" myth...

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/view.php?filename=5692021_09_03_11_50_44_Wi.jpg

That's T-72B tho? You are right, T-72B is the model that was meant to be a super high quality tank, but he's not entirely wrong either, the T-72 originally was a wartime modeltank that was put into serial production in peacetime under a special exception. The T-72A was envisioned to replace T-55s and T-62s in Motor Rifle Units.

[Squash]

Can't find now who said it, but that's not true, there were some units with T-72s which would've probably been sent to Germany in the first/second week of the war. For example 11th CAA (1st TD, 40th GTD, 1st and 26th GMRD) from Baltic Military District would probably be sent to Germany by the second/third week, maybe even sooner, and it was fully equipped with T-72s by 1990. Same for units of Belorussian Military District. They certainly wouldn't be sending T-62s instead. There were very few units with T-62s in western parts of USSR by 1989/1990. But yes, obviously, divisions which are currently in the game didn't use T-72s.