Tanks need Missile Counters

[TheSuit]

Right now there is just an insane amount of tracking missiles - making tanks less and less viable against missile spam.

It doesn't help tanks like challenger 2 even when standing perfectly still misses non stop and has an insanely long reload speed on top of it all.

Having an ADS on tanks would help curtail missile spam and make tanks more viable.
( though arguments will be there "smoke" is ads. but Smoke is a 1 time use )

[Rabidnid]

No one had ADS in 1989 apart from Soviet naval infantry T-62/55s.

Use smoke from the tanks or your own artillery. suprress the missile launchers with artillery and use the terrain or random smoke clouds to break LOS so the missiles lose tracking.

[LastTurkInPontus]

Use arty to make sure those capitalist dogs meet their makers. Also be sure that every tank post 1960 has ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ smoke

[2 Straight Homies Doing the Gay]

You clowns just have 0 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idea how much smoke you would actually use in a real world scenario. Every battle drill for 11bs and 12bs that ive had to learn and train to my soldiers always has the word "obfuscation" in huge, black letters all over the FM page.

Here are the basic fundamentals that each infantryman / engineer has to learn. They are called battle drills, or a collection of rapid actions you can execute without conscious decision making when reacting to a situation:

1: React to Direct Fire
2: Conduct a Platoon Attack
2A: Conduct a Squad Assault
3: Break Contact
4: React to an Ambush
5: Knock out a Bunker
6: Enter and Clear a Room
7: Enter a Trench to Secure a Foothold
8: Conduct the Initial Breach of a Mined Wire Obstacle
9: React to Indirect Fire
10: React to a Chemical Attack
11: React to an IED
12: Dismount a BFV and ICV
13: Mount a BFV and ICV
14: Execute Action Left or Right While Mounted

These are all on the EIB course. ALL OF THESE EVEN ON THE SQUAD LEVEL USES AND BENEFITS FROM USING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF SMOKE.Even as a basic ♥♥♥♥♥ fireteam, your grenadier AND SGT had a M320 / 203 with standard battle loadout to include smoke grenades. Even in an element of 4 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dudes, half of them had the capability of launching smoke grenades. This should give you an idea of the amount of smoke you would use.

S, O, S, R, A. These are the fundamentals to breaching but if you put it in WARNO terms, it is what you should be doing before assaulting any position with the best amount of success

SUPPRESS, OBSCURE, SECURE, REDUCE, ASSAULT. Levels of importance are all METTC dependant but these are the fundamentals for basically any movement into contact or purposeful enagement.

https://youtu.be/ZZ-sCT_maAQ?t=376

When moving a large formation involving armor, infantry, engineers, and whatever else you need into the breach and to your limit of advance, you put down a ♥♥♥♥ ton of smoke. You smoke the target area where you will be defeating the obstacle. You smoke to it's left and right limits, and you put down smoke between the breach area and your assets (usually breaching element and assaulting element)

You wanna know why we have those plastic smoke launchers on every single spare inch of the US Army's vics? Because you can never not have enough smoke on hand. Needing to obscure yourself and finding yourself without it can literally be the difference between an entire paltoon making it to the obj or coming home as ashes in burnt out vehicles.

If you ever let atgms have a clear sight line to watch and engage you while you try and assault, then you're already ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

smoke
smoke
smoke
smoke
smoke
smoke and use more smoke

[Ahriman]

So out of curiosity, say we make it so that certain tanks become invulnerable to their main counter, and you have Divisions that have 0 access to proper Tanks, where their only counter against Tanks is missiles that everyone else can suppress well enough using smoke most Tanks come provided with in addition to those given by Mortars and Artillery. How do you fight Tanks in that situation?

[TheSuit]

Originally posted by Ahriman:

So out of curiosity, say we make it so that certain tanks become invulnerable to their main counter, and you have Divisions that have 0 access to proper Tanks, where their only counter against Tanks is missiles that everyone else can suppress well enough using smoke most Tanks come provided with in addition to those given by Mortars and Artillery. How do you fight Tanks in that situation?

You can't really call it a counter if it gets spammed non stop and is better than actual tank shots.

Like if I were playing a normal RTS game, I would just move the tanks out of LoS the second I see the missile.

In Warno vehicles refuse to move if they are engaging.
In Warno it gets compounded further - only some tanks have smoke.
They only have one smoke


And Mortar Smoke takes a very long time to shoot


Take yesterday i had Challanger 2 - Vet 2
vs a russian ITV

My challanger was standing perfectly still in an open field and somehow missed non stop against an ITV landing every hit and was not even vet.

Worst yet, it hit it 2 times and still didn't die. Even though ITV's got like 2 armor.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by TheSuit:

In Warno vehicles refuse to move if they are engaging.
In Warno it gets compounded further - only some tanks have smoke.
They only have one smoke

And Mortar Smoke takes a very long time to shoot

They only do this if you have the wrong setting on, which is automatic hunt. Remove that, and suddenly your tanks will obey reverse command without issue.

As for the smoke, this is why you scout things out. See missiles coming your way? Smoke, reverse, prepare barrage, resupply the first tank, smokes land across the treeline where the enemy ATGMs are, push. Your Tank Shell will land faster than the ATGM will travel, and if you are within 2/3 of your max range, Vet 2 tanks will easily have the accuracy to nail the first shot.

As for the damage here, something about that number is hella sus. Assuming you did hit twice with a Challenger 2, that ITV would have been dead, not to mention there is no such thing as a Russian ITV. You seem to have gone against a Nato Division, which causes its own issues, but even then, assuming it was an ITV, unmodded, and was hit twice, it dies, 100% of the time. The Challenger 2 only needs 2 hits to kill it.

We'll be needing a replay of this honestly, because things aren't adding up.

[Kamikaze Velociraptor]

The issue isn't missiles but the speed of which units are moving. Not to mention you can forward deploy your entire starting income as well. There is a reason why Broken Arrow drove players from this game to that game. It was the pacing of BA and Eugen cartoonish level of speed and spam.

[Amormaliar]

Originally posted by Kamikaze Velociraptor:

The issue isn't missiles but the speed of which units are moving. Not to mention you can forward deploy your entire starting income as well. There is a reason why Broken Arrow drove players from this game to that game. It was the pacing of BA and Eugen cartoonish level of speed and spam.

No, thanks. We already don’t have enough units in Warno (there should be more units on the field and in decks)

[Bloody10th]

The last patch in BA was pure AIDS to me. 1000pt starts so balls of overperforming meme units dumpster standard openers even harder. It also completely broke smoke by making your units crack sprint out of it into enemy fire, and somehow managed to break unit control + any potential autonomous AI as well. Ground based AA would randomly fall asleep like joe biden. And then they were like "we'll do you a solid bro and give you this last weekend to fully submerse yourself in the diseased pool of cheaters with a semi-unplayable game". I keked and uninstalled that dumpster fire on friday afternoon. I love the gameplay a lot more than WARNO's brand of cancer but man they atleast have to present a valid excuse of a game first and foremost.

But yeah, I prefer more units and bigger battles, not "le tactical". I enjoyed Ground Control 1 and 2 as a kid but would never want that kind of thing in a PVP setting, MOBAs get memed on by the RTS community for a reason. I was playing war2 as a kid in 96 but gramps ain't got cankles in his wrists just yet, I don't see myself retiring from classic RTS games anytime soon.

[ORKSIZDABEST]

SO that the game can again degenerate to mindless tank spam? No, thanks. We have broken arrow with tank jousting on city maps and that's allreay bad enough.

[Bloody10th]

<insert unit here> "spam" because yeah, availability, per-card cost in the deck points, their 300pt+ pricetags etc. can't all be tuned. But honestly, it's probably unironically true because anything beyond 5-10 point adjustments and some random card shuffling is far beyond the scope of the holy balance god.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Kamikaze Velociraptor:

The issue isn't missiles but the speed of which units are moving. Not to mention you can forward deploy your entire starting income as well. There is a reason why Broken Arrow drove players from this game to that game. It was the pacing of BA and Eugen cartoonish level of speed and spam.

Psst...

It was actually because it was a free test, and WARNO is waiting for its new DLC to drop, so that's what happened there. Don't ignore the by far the largest, to the point of it making up 99% of the reason for the high player numbers, factor, it was 0€/£0/$0 to download, launch, test, and drop.

BA has its own series of problems that will be its downfall if they were to release it now, thus why we won't see it in 2025 either beyond another beta should they keep their current pace of development.

[TornadoADV]

Originally posted by 2 Straight Homies Doing the Gay:

You clowns just have 0 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idea how much smoke you would actually use in a real world scenario. Every battle drill for 11bs and 12bs that ive had to learn and train to my soldiers always has the word "obfuscation" in huge, black letters all over the FM page.

Instructions Unclear, Set Self On-fire to create smoke.

[TheSuit]

Originally posted by ORKSIZDABEST:

SO that the game can again degenerate to mindless tank spam? No, thanks. We have broken arrow with tank jousting on city maps and that's allreay bad enough.

Tanks are meant to Tank damage and Push.
But missiles have no minimum range so even if you smoke cover a forward push missiles can obliterate tanks easy thanks to its high damage.

The difference between aiming and firing between a missile and tank is only about 2s at most.

Originally posted by Bloody10th:

I enjoyed Ground Control 1 and 2.

I loved GC2 so much especially the rain and ambush mechanics

Originally posted by Ahriman:

Originally posted by TheSuit:

In Warno vehicles refuse to move if they are engaging.
In Warno it gets compounded further - only some tanks have smoke.
They only have one smoke

And Mortar Smoke takes a very long time to shoot

They only do this if you have the wrong setting on, which is automatic hunt. Remove that, and suddenly your tanks will obey reverse command without issue.

As for the smoke, this is why you scout things out. See missiles coming your way? Smoke, reverse, prepare barrage, resupply the first tank, smokes land across the treeline where the enemy ATGMs are, push. Your Tank Shell will land faster than the ATGM will travel, and if you are within 2/3 of your max range, Vet 2 tanks will easily have the accuracy to nail the first shot.

That's only practical for basic strategy.

Barrage has such a massive aiming time they can easily push back in time.

Also ITV didn't die, it had some bar appear over its health on the first shot.
2nd Shot reduced its hp to 50% but it did escape.

But then 3 missiles came from the tree line and killed the challanger.


But I will check if I had Hunt mode on, I normally do not keep it on but maybe I did it by accident

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by TheSuit:

That's only practical for basic strategy.

Barrage has such a massive aiming time they can easily push back in time.

Also ITV didn't die, it had some bar appear over its health on the first shot.
2nd Shot reduced its hp to 50% but it did escape.

But then 3 missiles came from the tree line and killed the challanger.

But I will check if I had Hunt mode on, I normally do not keep it on but maybe I did it by accident

Exceptionally odd, because the Tank round from a Challenger deals 9 damage to the ITV at max range, reducing it to 1 HP. Seems you got unlucky and both times missed, with the latter shot landing right next to it. Challenger has a 70% hit chance at Vet 2 at max range and will 1-hit-kill the ITV, or any vehicle with max 2 armour and 10HP, from under 1880 meters.

As for the way your tank went down, depending on what those missiles were, you were looking at more than the price of the Challenger there in terms of investment from the defender. ITV alone is 60-75pts depending which one it was, and since these are also Nato ATGMs, the price is basically up there as well. 4 when combined with the ITV you forced to retreat, that is around 240-300pts.

Originally posted by TheSuit:

Tanks are meant to Tank damage and Push.
But missiles have no minimum range so even if you smoke cover a forward push missiles can obliterate tanks easy thanks to its high damage.

The difference between aiming and firing between a missile and tank is only about 2s at most.

But that is where the fun fact about missile vs a Tank round comes in. Tank round is F&F, 90% of the missiles in the game, with 100% of those on the ground, are Guided, meaning that you have to take into consideration the travel time of the missile vs the Tank Round. If at ANY point the missile platform is Stunned, Routed, Killed, or the LoS is broken off, the missile misses unless it has managed to get so close that it doesn't have time to go haywire. Tanks on the other hand can roll up, aim, shoot, smoke, reverse, and the tank shell will continue to its target, even if the enemy also quickly smoked and reversed. If the shell was going to be a hit, it will hit.

The funny bit is that majority of ATGM platforms come in two flavours on the ground. Weapon Teams that get stunned by one hit, and light vehicle platforms which in turn die to all but the most oudated Tanks in one shot at half range on hit. Smoking the treeline, forcing the enemy then to pick between pushing out of cover into the open, where they then have to accept that the first volley they fire will miss due to Tank smoke also being popped, or staying behind the smoke and pray they will win the CQC fight does not make a favourable encounter for the ATGM teams.

You also forget one very, very vital detail about ATGMs. They are HEAT weapons, they only ever deal so much damage. Range is irrelevant to them, only the angle they hit matters. Even if the ATGM is fired point-blank, it will deal the same amount of damage as the max range hit will deal, meanwhile the Tank will get an ever increasing chance to one-tap the enemy target the closer it gets.

So once again, missiles are fine, there are plenty of ways to deal with them, and you just need to learn how to better utilise tanks against entrenched positions.