West German infantrie need a buff !

[lex_the_butcher]

hi
im a little bit sad about the West german infantrie, everytime i fight other inf, dosent matter if the enemy squad has less soldiers, it feels they lost every time. Especially the pioniers that should be stormgroups :( pls buff the west German Inf.
I really love the Game and hope you can fix this ;)

thx for the great work so far

[ChargingSnail]

Pioniers have assoult trait already.
Yet, 7,62 AR and LMG should get a slighty buff to dmg and suppresion.

[Gadget]

The AT guns are weak AF imo. All squad have weak At accept FS-Jäger. Marder can carry 7 Inf. You get only 6/5 Inf if they can use a Marder. Buff AT-Rocket-Launchers atleast and a few of the units need more man. Pioneers are good and Jagdaufklärer as well. They get a cheap marder though witch supports units. But without the IFV buff GER INF feels weak plus the Inf lacks overall some Support like choppers etc.
Maybe thats why engaments feel tough. Just minor tweeks needed imo. Support or some minor buffs/traits added

[Sneaky_Beaky]

I've had great success with the German mechanized unit. While it's individual components are slightly weaker than almost all of their peers, their composition is really strong. It's the only mechanized deck with 8x (relevant) forward SF. Also Gepard is top SPAAG currently, plus they get F-4F's to mitigate the Mi-24V/K sweep at round start. It's got strengths and weaknesses..

I have a few suggestions;

1. Use 1x Pionier (ARMBURST) + 1x Pionier (FLASH), together as a team. Together they're more effective. I use Fuchz (lmao, the German wheeled transport vehicle that shall not be named I guess) for both, and treat them as a QRF (quick reaction force).

2. Panzergrendier (Marder) have a specific role; mechanized assault. Let's say your tanks have cleared a path towards the outside of a village. You would drive the Marders up, stop before infantry RPG range, and dismount the infantry. Smoke wall if they come under ATGM fire.... Then march the infantry into an edge building and establish a foothold -- while being covered by the Marders and tanks. If they get shot at by anyone, these units will be recon'd and the tanks and Marders will annihilate them. So then you just reinforce with other infantry units to expand the foothold.

3. Panzergrenedier (M113) are the main infantry unit. They have 9-strength and start out at veteran training per card. This is slightly better than Motostrelki and Mot-Shutzen.

4. Jagers are better understood as reservists (kinda). They don't have unsteady trait, but they have bottom training rank. Basically they're reservists, who don't require a military police unit nearby. They're best for use in supplementing other things, like Pionier teams clearing a forest, or quickly getting cheap infantry into an urban foothold to expand/secure it.

5. The 11-strength recon Jagers are strong and precious.

[Gadget]

But without firesupport from tanks they are in trouble with the low DMG on AT weapons. The Combined forces strat is fun. The PZ.Grenadier M113 cant be self sufficent if one Medium Armored vehicle is close. You need a Tank which cost 80 for a Fragile one (5. Panzer). Motorstrelki can force a retreat on all armored Vehicles with theyr RPG. Defesiv they are good with the Fuchs Milan and marder hidden in Woods.

[Sneaky_Beaky]

Originally posted by Gadget:

But without firesupport from tanks they are in trouble with the low DMG on AT weapons. The Combined forces strat is fun. The PZ.Grenadier M113 cant be self sufficent if one Medium Armored vehicle is close. You need a Tank which cost 80 for a Fragile one (5. Panzer). Motorstrelki can force a retreat on all armored Vehicles with theyr RPG. Defesiv they are good with the Fuchs Milan and marder hidden in Woods.

Actually I do agree. I can understand Jager having the old Panzerfaust. But not Panzergrenediers. They're supposed to be the crack line infantry. They should get the nice Panzerfaust.

The tank situation is difficult though. Germany has a really strong air tab. I super want more 2A3's in that deck, but, their air tab is too strong to justify it. Like if I had all those Tornado variants, and 8x trained 2A3's, daaaaamn I'd be in business.

[Gadget]

I would give a bit of this air strenght away for rocket Helis for. Apache costs a lot but helis are often the saving grace for inf and than die but saving the gained Territory, Than we could keep the inf the same with a bit more AT Capability. Plane Slots Cost a Lot so i went for quality Tanks rather than Air. You cant get both i think. Overall it is a cool devision but lacks Versitility.

[LeutnantK]

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

Jagers are better understood as reservists (kinda). They don't have unsteady trait, but they have bottom training rank. Basically they're reservists, who don't require a military police unit nearby. They're best for use in supplementing other things, like Pionier teams clearing a forest, or quickly getting cheap infantry into an urban foothold to expand/secure it.

If you know what you are doing, Jäger can be a pretty decent unit, especially for their price. The combination of Jäger and Heimatschützen for example works quite well in infantry fights - basically the latter tanks the demage, while the Jäger can fire on the infantry. The 8. Infantry Division is a prime example where to use this tactic.

If there is any room for improvement in that particular case, then its in the transport department. I would really like to see Jäger getting access to the UH-1 and so creating a west-german version of the Aero-Rifles. 5. Panzerdivision and 2. Panzergrenadier-Division lack an airbourne infantry and it's not completely unthinkable, that such a unit uses a transport helo - not just to mention, that the recon Jäger of Territorial Kommando Süd have access to the UH-1.

[Sneaky_Beaky]

Originally posted by Gadget:

I would give a bit of this air strenght away for rocket Helis for. Apache costs a lot but helis are often the saving grace for inf and than die but saving the gained Territory, Than we could keep the inf the same with a bit more AT Capability. Plane Slots Cost a Lot so i went for quality Tanks rather than Air. You cant get both i think. Overall it is a cool devision but lacks Versitility.

West Germany didn't have Apache's in the 1980's. The internet says they only operated BO-105, Alouette-III, UH-1D, and a few CH-53. Like what Eugen made.

I've had some really good rounds with this division so far. So I think it works good as is on the whole, even currently. But I'd be stoked if the shipment of new Panzerfausts arrived.

[Sneaky_Beaky]

Originally posted by LeutnantK:

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

Jagers are better understood as reservists (kinda). They don't have unsteady trait, but they have bottom training rank. Basically they're reservists, who don't require a military police unit nearby. They're best for use in supplementing other things, like Pionier teams clearing a forest, or quickly getting cheap infantry into an urban foothold to expand/secure it.

If you know what you are doing, Jäger can be a pretty decent unit, especially for their price. The combination of Jäger and Heimatschützen for example works quite well in infantry fights - basically the latter tanks the demage, while the Jäger can fire on the infantry. The 8. Infantry Division is a prime example where to use this tactic.

If there is any room for improvement in that particular case, then its in the transport department. I would really like to see Jäger getting access to the UH-1 and so creating a west-german version of the Aero-Rifles. 5. Panzerdivsion and 2. Panzergrenadier-Division lack an airbourne infantry and it's not completely unthinkable, that such a unit uses a transport helo - not just to mention, that the recon Jäger of Territorial Kommando Süd have access to the UH-1.

The regular/militia combo of which you speak sounds cost-effective and useful. Nice nice.

Aero-Jagers sounds cooler than Aero-Rifles certainly.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

Originally posted by Gadget:

I would give a bit of this air strenght away for rocket Helis for. Apache costs a lot but helis are often the saving grace for inf and than die but saving the gained Territory, Than we could keep the inf the same with a bit more AT Capability. Plane Slots Cost a Lot so i went for quality Tanks rather than Air. You cant get both i think. Overall it is a cool devision but lacks Versitility.

West Germany didn't have Apache's in the 1980's. The internet says they only operated BO-105, Alouette-III, UH-1D, and a few CH-53. Like what Eugen made.

I've had some really good rounds with this division so far. So I think it works good as is on the whole, even currently. But I'd be stoked if the shipment of new Panzerfausts arrived.

As long as they get BOs with rockets i am fine without an apache, if the price is adjusted. Add Better AT and we are good for now. Than its only fine tuning

[Sneaky_Beaky]

Originally posted by Gadget:

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

West Germany didn't have Apache's in the 1980's. The internet says they only operated BO-105, Alouette-III, UH-1D, and a few CH-53. Like what Eugen made.

I've had some really good rounds with this division so far. So I think it works good as is on the whole, even currently. But I'd be stoked if the shipment of new Panzerfausts arrived.

As long as they get BOs with rockets i am fine without an apache, if the price is adjusted. Add Better AT and we are good for now. Than its only fine tuning

Yes that would be more consistent. Like with the rocket Gazelles England gets.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

1. Use 1x Pionier (ARMBURST) + 1x Pionier (FLASH), together as a team. Together they're more effective. I use Fuchz (lmao, the German wheeled transport vehicle that shall not be named I guess) for both, and treat them as a QRF (quick reaction force).

This one is a bit confusing to me, no German Pioner unit has the Flash available to it. Are you talking about the Flamer unit? Otherwise, yeah, the Engineer units on the Nato side tend to be better utilized as one unit split into two smaller teams, one that actually takes the hits, and the one with the actual weapon(s) that hurt. Takes a bit of micro and time to get used to.

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

2. Panzergrendier (Marder) have a specific role; mechanized assault. Let's say your tanks have cleared a path towards the outside of a village. You would drive the Marders up, stop before infantry RPG range, and dismount the infantry. Smoke wall if they come under ATGM fire.... Then march the infantry into an edge building and establish a foothold -- while being covered by the Marders and tanks. If they get shot at by anyone, these units will be recon'd and the tanks and Marders will annihilate them. So then you just reinforce with other infantry units to expand the foothold.

One thing that should be noted is that both German divisions have a lot of slots, and options, for Artillery, and this is very much meant to compensate for the lack of more effective shocktroops like the US or UK tends to get. Basically what you described is the start, though you don't want to bring the Marders that close all things considered, mostly because you don't need to, the autocannon has plenty of range. You have your preferred pick of arty in German divisions too, because you get either the 155s, the 203s, MARS, and the Mortars, all of which are wonderful additions to any mechanized offensives.

The usual trick is to smoke the buildings just beyond the ones you intent to occupy. This denies the enemy the chance to shoot at you from those buildings before all your units have gotten inside.

Originally posted by Sneaky_Beaky:

3. Panzergrenedier (M113) are the main infantry unit. They have 9-strength and start out at veteran training per card. This is slightly better than Motostrelki and Mot-Shutzen.

My personal preference is FS-Jägers for my "mainline" (the actual fighting unit in this case), while the PzGrens are there for support and regular Jägers for force recon, and to be general bullet sponges.

I like the German decks, but I am still waiting for my proper Leopard 1 Division, as I am a big fan of them, love 'em to death. Not that the Leopard 2 is not fun to use either, but I like the lighter tanks to the heavier ones. Same reason I prefer the T-72s on the Pact side over the T-80s.

German Infantry is not meant to be as CQC focused as their other counterparts, the Germans are the most mobile offensive focused faction on the Nato side all things considered, having the best Stabilizers and great MGs. In other words, German Infantry is where it should be more or less, the shortcomings they have are made up everywhere else.

[Sneaky_Beaky]

Originally posted by Ahriman:

...

This guy has like 300 hours in SD2, and he thinks he can talk smack like he's some kind of epic general lmao.

Originally posted by Ahriman:

This one is a bit confusing to me, no German Pioner unit has the Flash available to it.

Once upon a time, I got 3 letters wrong.

Originally posted by Ahriman:

One thing that should be noted is that both German divisions have a lot of slots, and options, for Artillery,

Did you read the title of the thread, in your frantic rush to try and correct me?

Originally posted by Ahriman:

and this is very much meant to compensate for the lack of more effective shocktroops

What lack?

Originally posted by Ahriman:

you don't want to bring the Marders that close all things considered

Your gameplay is to keep them next to the FOB, so what do you know about it?

What's the range of a Marder's auto-cannon, versus the range of a Motostrelki (BMP)'s RPG-7VR buddy?

Originally posted by Ahriman:

You have your preferred pick of arty in German divisions too, because you get either the 155s, the 203s, MARS, and the Mortars, all of which are wonderful additions to any mechanized offensives.

Spamming [3,000 deployment points] worth of artillery, and then walking 2 infantry across the field to check if it's empty yet -- is not a mechanized assault.....

Originally posted by Ahriman:

he usual trick is to smoke the buildings just beyond the ones you intent to occupy.

Wrong.

Edge defenders are easily killed by Marder/tank cover -- that's the entire point of the mechanized assault methodology durrrr.

Therefore --- you wanna smoke any surrounding treelines/peripheral buildings that might be hiding ATGM's, tanks, and other threats to the Marders.

** I was real LEM in CS:GO, check my screenshots. I know more about everything than you do, but, particularly smoke and how to use it -- like specifically.

Originally posted by Ahriman:

My personal preference is FS-Jägers for my "mainline" (the actual fighting unit in this case), while the PzGrens are there for support and regular Jägers for force recon, and to be general bullet sponges.

Okay noted Mr. 300 hours in SD2....

"Force recon" === "the cheap unit he walks across empty fields to check for contact he can spam artillery at."

[Gadget]

Calm down Tigers

[Sneaky_Beaky]

Originally posted by Gadget:

Calm down Tigers

So far he's lasted longer than the others.