German infantry is too week

[Blutrache]

Hello,

my main nation are the germans and after the patch with the HE Nerf of the bombers Im just seeing that im losing every inf-fight in forests and pushing is a big problem too.

Problem 1: Still pushing at the start is a big problem. You got FS-Jäger and FS-Milan but no FS-AA (ignoring the fact that they are rly useless and missing 80 % of all shots and not even one shot is enough). So the pact is pushing with rocket helos and the first time youre seeing one you know you alrdy ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. Either you keep pushing and everything gets shot down or you retreat and all your tactic is not working anymore. The only thing you can do, is waiting for the gepard, which needs 400-500 bullets for a Mi. But when it has to fight against 3-4 helos its down for sure. 20 and 30 mm doing nothing against them. Roland is useless, since it will miss the first shot for 99 % and one shot isnt enough. While it reloads it gets killed for 100 %. You got no aa-Helo, since there is no Tiger in game and we dont need to talk about this useless Apache. We also dont need to talk about buying a F4, when it circles the first time enemy aircrafts loving this trick and its instant down.

Problem 2: When you handle to get in spot the first fights alrdy sucks. While the pact got good IFV with high caliber guns, the germans got nothing. You will not buy this useless Panzergrenadiere just to have a Marder 1a3 the only valuable IFV for the germans. The IFV ♥♥♥♥♥ is useless. The only vehicle to you can order and use are the scout vehicles. But well, I dont need a scout vehicle deep in the forests?! Since you dont can order IFV otherwise

Problem 3: Spetsnaz are unstopable. Once youve seen them you alrdy know youve to retreat or die. No explosion charge or flamethrower will stop them. Youre lucky when you hit them with the arty, since bombers are useless. But most of the time youre infantry has to run, is stunned or alrdy dead until the arty is rdy to fire and when the bullets are coming in the inf is somewhere else. As german you have to keep out your ass out of the forests, of the air. The only thing you can do is open field. When you get covered by your mates

I rly have lost all the fun on this game, cause I know theres just inf spam or helo spam coming and you cant do anything against it. Fliegerfaust got one shot, when it misses = dead trough Autocannon/rockets. Gepard is totally useless in forestfights. Needs to long to get vision even when it reaches the destination the helo is able to escape, even when shocked, since you need hundreds of shots to kill it. And mostly it gets stunned and killed anyways. No aa helos either. So I dont know how to counter such gameplay as the germans

[Luxx]

Yeah total unfair a 100pt heli win against a 25pt inf unit. Even my 15pt manpad is no real thread against them.

Pls buff all units stat in this game for at least 50%!

[GAINSB]

About Spetsnaz, they do not have any AT equipment, are equipped with thermobaric rocket launchers, have 12 (!) soldiers, are limited in availability and are super expensive.

Such a large and anti inf specialised SF squad rightfully should ram through regular inf squads.

[Name]

Use pioneers at vet 2 and lob a satchel at them. Might need sicherungs or a squad you can sacrifice to probe the spetz first so they exhaust their RPO’s. You can also use feldjagers with their sun machine guns to make quick work of them in forest fights

[Vategrac]

Originally posted by 10v10 Artillery enjoyer:

Use pioneers at vet 2 and lob a satchel at them. Might need sicherungs or a squad you can sacrifice to probe the spetz first so they exhaust their RPO’s. You can also use feldjagers with their sun machine guns to make quick work of them in forest fights

Lol, sicherungs vs spetz. Come on, that's just not happening. Even if they've exhausted their RPO.

The OP has a legitimate concern though. I may not agree with all of it, but yes Jagers aren't in a very good spot with their battle rifles. Add in the fact you can't upvet Jagers (which is absolutely bull****), they have a putrid 5% move acc, 1.75 reload and 102 fire rate and you must have a numbers advantage to engage almost any other unit.

I really want them to be viable because using only US is getting pretty boring, but their poor infantry just can't hold against anything. I know they have 11 man squad, but again, when only 1 vet they don't stand a chance. And yes, I know use a leader. Great for 2 Panzergren, but not 5th due to very costly and few slots. Terrkdo is the only division you can upvet Jagers. And oddly enough, they are quite effective. I would love to have the ability to upvet the Jagers to make it more effective to use the German divs.

[Blutrache]

Yes, okay. Spetz are special forces and expensive and should be super strong. But where are the german special forces? Sure are Jäger just a equivalent for the Moto. and shouldnt bait them, but I should be able to counter this somehow. They are just walking trough pioniers, which are stunned so fast. And you also cant counter them with tanks. Normaly you got mixed inf with at and antiinf capab. so tanks are mostly instant onehits.

I also had a fight at the start of the game, where I met my opponent. Both with just IFV (and the enemy of course with helos, cause I dont have some, just a useless rocket Bo) I had 2 Fliegerfaust with me, one hit, one miss, helo was stunned for 2 sec and shot down my whole vehicles. The IFVs did the rest. I lost all my stuff while the enemy lost maybe 20 %. All my stuff like the Gepard or scout IFV where still driving and came way too late.

The only thing I can do with the germans right now (Me, with my knowledge and skill) is to support someone with another nation and not to rush, what brings extreme problems (lack of vision, weaker defensive line). Yes, I could rush with Milan and some Jägers, but one helo and all my stuff is gone, without being able to do something against it.

Yes, germany got good stuff. Hawk, Gepard (if it doesnt need 500 bullets for one helo) and tanks, but it cant stand mostly on its own. Tanks are too vulnerable in close range fights and I cant count how often my gepard got killed trough tanks, ifv rockets or helos, since it needs 5 minutes to fight 1 helo and is out of ammo or had to rush on open field to kill at least one akula. Theres no other way, since you dont even have a Tiger to counter those

[Name]

Originally posted by ChromiumPotato:

Originally posted by 10v10 Artillery enjoyer:

Use pioneers at vet 2 and lob a satchel at them. Might need sicherungs or a squad you can sacrifice to probe the spetz first so they exhaust their RPO’s. You can also use feldjagers with their sun machine guns to make quick work of them in forest fights

Lol, sicherungs vs spetz. Come on, that's just not happening. Even if they've exhausted their RPO.

The OP has a legitimate concern though. I may not agree with all of it, but yes Jagers aren't in a very good spot with their battle rifles. Add in the fact you can't upvet Jagers (which is absolutely bull****), they have a putrid 5% move acc, 1.75 reload and 102 fire rate and you must have a numbers advantage to engage almost any other unit.

I really want them to be viable because using only US is getting pretty boring, but their poor infantry just can't hold against anything. I know they have 11 man squad, but again, when only 1 vet they don't stand a chance. And yes, I know use a leader. Great for 2 Panzergren, but not 5th due to very costly and few slots. Terrkdo is the only division you can upvet Jagers. And oddly enough, they are quite effective. I would love to have the ability to upvet the Jagers to make it more effective to use the German divs.

There’s other strategies too to make it work. He could hammer the spetz with mortars or smoke to get the pioneers close enough for a satchel throw.

I agree though infantry weapon damage in this game is atrocious. It feels like I’m shooting with rubber bullets sometimes. I hope this is something that will get adjusted in the future. Fs-Jagers seem to really only be able to counter enemy suppression and take out enemy tanks well.

I wish the community would talk about how weak infantry weapon damage is instead of about artillery and planes all the time, but it shows you where those players focus is on in the game and gives you an idea as to their playstyle

Edit: when facing incredibly tough infantry or blobs as 2nd pz gren, try the tornado MW1 he bomblet plane. It’s incredible. Infantry garrisoned in Forests / buildings that normally provide strong artillery / bomb HE resilience don’t stand a chance

[Blutrache]

Well, when your enemy got brain your HE Bombers are just one fly planes, since the enemy got also good aa and aa-helos (and you dont got ECR planes on this deck, when Im correctly). The HE dmg is also too bad to bomb blind. How I said, mostly my inf is still dead until the planes arrives on this large map (with traveling time)

[Name]

You know what I find strange? Fs-Jagers, Milan’s, leaders - all used to come available with helicopter transport. That got purged shortly after the divisions release. Why does VDV division get a ♥♥♥♥ ton of helicopter infantry? Even 82nd airborne doesn’t make sense seeing that only aerorifles can come with heli transport.

Off topic but since we are talking about discrepancies between the faction infantry and 2nd pz gren I figured it was worth bringing it up.

[Name]

Originally posted by Nero:

You may have to face the fact that not every division is capable at every task. Play to your strenghts. If you can't match your opponent in a given situation, then don't even get into said situation. The germans aren't exactly versatile.

Perhaps the base model of the Marder 1 could be added as an option? Would that help?

If mortars were worth a penny I'd suggest them but eh sadly they ain't.

There are many maps that are quite open. Try those. Or play Blue vs Blue. French and UK should be fun to play against.

Sadly you’re wrong on mortars not being worth a penny. Try 5-6 120 mm mortar squads at minimum range and come back to edit your post when you see how effective they really are.

But your right about each division having strengths and weaknesses, territory command is a rewarding division but very challenging one to play.

[Name]

Originally posted by Blutrache:

Well, when your enemy got brain your HE Bombers are just one fly planes, since the enemy got also good aa and aa-helos (and you dont got ECR planes on this deck, when Im correctly). The HE dmg is also too bad to bomb blind. How I said, mostly my inf is still dead until the planes arrives on this large map (with traveling time)

You should try probing the area you wish to bomb with either a disposable plane or a plane with high ECM and see how thick the enemy AA is and their positions before you send in a bomber. You can smoke the enemy aa with artillery or lob shells at it keeping it busy moving or suppressed. There are plenty of ways to deal with high aa concentrations. Even sending in more bombers and overwhelming the AA network works too. Think outside of the box.

[Theo]

Germany is my main nation and I do not agree at all. Your issues might stem from primarily playing 10v10 or some other meme heavy modes like 2x income.

Problem 1: Heli rushs are a major investment. Helis can't engage what they can't see. Either don't overextend with your FS to become vulnerable to them in the first place or don't rush them into a location where heli rushs can wipe them, like buildings in the center of the map which are open to dumb fire rocket helis on large ranges. 2nd PanzerGren div is not an ideal rush deck, sure they do have FD FS which you can utilize to take favorable positions early on but as you observe yourself the lack of FD AA and helo AA will make them vulnerable to HEL and AIR with rockets / bombs during early game if you outran your AA cover. F-4 is not that bad as a helo counter + you get access to Tornados to cover them against more potent ASF. In any case, teamwork is the dreamwork so start communicating to plug those holes in your early lineup.

Problem 2: PzGrens and Marders have their uses. Buff PzGrens by keeping Marders behind them and they will hold their own against Motostrelki just fine. Fighting shock inf is not an option for AT inf in CQB in any case, PzGrens are no exception to this rule. The Marder has a niche as a transport, APC and AAA killer. Soviet IFVs with autocannons are a no-go unless you outnumber them and even then it's not always smart. Basic soviet IFVs like BMP-1 variants at close range are not an issue. You can also keep Marders in reserve to run over low cohesion or shocked infantry, prevent infantry from moving in the open and bring them up for fire support when infantry is outside of their AT range.

I brought this Marder here in early and it put in some serious work for the entire duration of the match, surviving until the end: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2937252768

Problem 3: Spetsnaz got nerfed hard by RPO damage reduction + they only have 4 shots of RPO anyway. Sacrifice some Sicherungs to drain their RPO and overrun them with shock inf. Alternatively you can use your own incendiary launchers to keep them moving and prevent them from using their static RPO weapon. Edit: Marders also work great to fight Spetsnaz as they have no AT capabilities, same goes for pioneers, flamethrowers etc.

To the rest.... Rolands are excellent, so are multiple Gepards. Forests are not your friend for AAA in general. Also hard-disagree on Apaches, they are great. Half of the community says they are unkillable, the other half calls them useless - perfectly balanced as all things should be.

[Kampfkekskrieger EXP Folk Master]

well, wargame is complex and complicated and every itch is twisted around based on exact occassions;

speznaz have been easier to fight, (WG:RD) if you use some transport vehicles that have armor (even slightly), to tank the napalm rockets, and draw the fire on the vehicles instead of infantry squads.

infantry is a bottleneck in EVERY game: needs lots of administration, but then is very strong. you need to "defocus" the infantry hell where you can. Dont only play ONE spot, but add other places to the skirmishes, so more units can participate.

So whereever you can help with other units, i suggest you to do so. use alot of support vehicles, to get short clashes. if clashes are long, artillery and bombs run all to zero what you send in.

dont estimate that a infantry battle remains a pure infantry battle for longer than just few seconds, as all the reinforcement comes the longer it takes.

The german IFV are good in their own way. I think there is more space to figure it out for you. you can place them at the flanks to welcome opponents that rush through with helicopters or light vehicles.

all light vehicles are a good target for the APmg..

...
West germany anti air is historically accurate modelled. they have short range, and the Roland AA is only giving two missiles for a plane. you must add planes, and crowd up a bit and then you need a more aggressive playstyle, not only sitting duck reacting, so you can make use of special situations that you create this way.

you must flank, make surprise attacks, distract, all the tools that Frederick has.
dont worry, if you are a peasant. german peasants are strong!

[Amormaliar]

Originally posted by 10v10 Artillery enjoyer:

You know what I find strange? Fs-Jagers, Milan’s, leaders - all used to come available with helicopter transport. That got purged shortly after the divisions release. Why does VDV division get a ♥♥♥♥ ton of helicopter infantry? Even 82nd airborne doesn’t make sense seeing that only aerorifles can come with heli transport.

Off topic but since we are talking about discrepancies between the faction infantry and 2nd pz gren I figured it was worth bringing it up.

Well, maybe because VDV - airborne division? :D
You also forgetting that 35th - air assault troops (specialised on helis more than parachutes) and 82th and 11 - parachute forces, not helicopter-specialised. I think that Marines or Spec-Ops would have the same specialisation on helis (or idk who specialised on helis in NATO).
35th also can’t bring some units in helis anymore, so it’s a “nerf” for everyone

[Name]

Originally posted by Loules:

Originally posted by 10v10 Artillery enjoyer:

You know what I find strange? Fs-Jagers, Milan’s, leaders - all used to come available with helicopter transport. That got purged shortly after the divisions release. Why does VDV division get a ♥♥♥♥ ton of helicopter infantry? Even 82nd airborne doesn’t make sense seeing that only aerorifles can come with heli transport.

Off topic but since we are talking about discrepancies between the faction infantry and 2nd pz gren I figured it was worth bringing it up.

Well, maybe because VDV - airborne division? :D
You also forgetting that 35th - air assault troops (specialised on helis more than parachutes) and 82th and 11 - parachute forces, not helicopter-specialised. I think that Marines or Spec-Ops would have the same specialisation on helis (or idk who specialised on helis in NATO).
35th also can’t bring some units in helis anymore, so it’s a “nerf” for everyone

Okay, so what about 82nd airborne then? :D

What about the fact that fallschrimjagers are paratroopers trained in air assaults? :D

Also the Soviet division referenced in my post was VDV, not 39th or 79th guards.

[Amormaliar]

Originally posted by 10v10 Artillery enjoyer:

Originally posted by Loules:

Well, maybe because VDV - airborne division? :D
You also forgetting that 35th - air assault troops (specialised on helis more than parachutes) and 82th and 11 - parachute forces, not helicopter-specialised. I think that Marines or Spec-Ops would have the same specialisation on helis (or idk who specialised on helis in NATO).
35th also can’t bring some units in helis anymore, so it’s a “nerf” for everyone

Okay, so what about 82nd airborne then? :D

What about the fact that fallschrimjagers are paratroopers trained in air assaults? :D

Also the Soviet division referenced in my post was VDV, not 39th or 79th guards.

You can check Eugen’s posts (in announces) about this divisions, all info there. Yes, I’m talking about VDV too - 35th VDV, with Ka-50.
IIRC, by MadMat - VDV have two parts, parachute one (from planes) and “helicopters paratroopers”.
Parachute units have forward deployment, helicopters - … well, just helicopters.
82th and 11th airborne - parachute divisions, so they don’t use helicopters the same as 35th VDV. And 35th VDV consists of 2 parts - heli one and parachute one. Only heli troops (without forward deployment) have… helis. 35th can bring additional helis only through them or recon (but it’s the same for other divisions). It’s the same type of troops as aero-rifles (or smth like this).
So, 35th use helis + parachutes, and 82th only parachutes (but they have heli inf too, just a smaller amount). Anyway you bring additional helicopters in 35th only from recon or leaders, helicopter-infantry have the same load-out as IFV-infantry, and IFV plainly better. Yes, you can bring a lot of helicopters, but it’s a highly (!) suboptimal choice in terms of infantry, so yep - only recon, leaders and maybe MGs (no helicopter choices for specialized squads).

UPD: by Eugen, Warno have 2 types of paratroopers - parachutists from planes and para from helicopters. Parachutists have “forward deployment” and heli-paratroopers have helicopters as a transport choice, but not the “forward deployment”.