About cluster artillery and regular artillery

[Advisor]

Will this game have cluster artillery? I hope not, because I don't personally understand what good it brings to the game (in WG:RD): it's not really needed nor brings any interesting new to tactics. Usually it just makes games depend more on randomness. It can be used to command snipe, without any skill. And it doesn't even need spotting... ATACMS btw is just so broken. Cluster pretty much is the thing that ruins WG:RD the most (which is still good game though). For cases where enemy stacks too many units to one place and there's no way to go through, you're just playing in too small map with too many points. Usually one can do a lot with smokes as well.

I also think artillery generally is way too strong (in WG:RD): you don't need to see any unit, you just know that there has to be something in that forest or town, and then you just click "Destroy". I wish that in WARNO, the arty wouldn't kill too much, but that it would affect the new Cohesion a lot. So that arty would be for softening the defence before attack, and not just "let's kill everything there".

Thanks

[molnibalage]

I mostly agree with this with this comment.
Cluster arty is simply cancer.

It was the only thing were Eugen violated their "never going to happen" where the paradrop, nukes and many other things were listed among the CBU rocket arty.

But the arty as way in WG is bad because it was give to much firepower AND acc for top tier arty. The 10 sec aim and 7HE is made them simply OP.

While every other arty (maybe with some exceptions) had 30 sec aim time and 2-3 times larger dispersion.

This made also OP the 120 mm+ mortars with 10 sec aim time and 5HE.
105/122 mm arty became useless in RD while in ALB always was a serious consideration which is better fewer 155mm or more 105 mm.

Arty was rather a tool of suppression not killing. But EVERY arty had chance to intervene into land combat. Now in RD the older 105/122/155 mm arty simply did not have ANY other role that make massive barrage on cities and SAMs which may remained for a while stationary but that is all. They can't do counterarty of just intervene into combat.

Even bigger sin that top tier A cat arty at max range has smaller dispersion than bombers with low level bombing. This is pure stupidity. With CORR shots these artys were almost LGB bombs in the game.

These things also should be harmonized in WARNO

[Radioshow]

less and weaker artillery is why W:EE was so much better. Big maps, lots of room and arty that did the job but was not overkill, except the smerch lol. Cluster artillery is just cancerous. Access to so much arty makes too many people use it too much and then cant play the ground game and lose then complain.

[molnibalage]

Originally posted by Radioshow:

less and weaker artillery is why W:EE was so much better. Big maps, lots of room and arty that did the job but was not overkill, except the smerch lol. Cluster artillery is just cancerous. Access to so much arty makes too many people use it too much and then cant play the ground game and lose then complain.

I bought and tried EE long after I quite as a regular RD player.
EE was only a base of a good idea.
As a game it was total ♥♥♥♥ compared to ALB regardless it had only land combat.
The mechanics and balance was totally nonexistand also the ATGM visuals and many other thing also was very pood.

To me ALB is the best. It had the less issues. What is the most serious to me the totally underpowered AAA.

[Sarvik]

Originally posted by Radioshow:

less and weaker artillery is why W:EE was so much better. Big maps, lots of room and arty that did the job but was not overkill, except the smerch lol. Cluster artillery is just cancerous. Access to so much arty makes too many people use it too much and then cant play the ground game and lose then complain.

W:EE actually had quite a lot of arty available. One deck slot gave you like 8 Malkas, and pretty sure AUF1 and Dana availability was same or even higher.

Fundamental difference with W:EE arty was dispersion. In W:RD you can blindfire from your starting sector to enemy starting sector and still have very reasonable dispersion circle. If you tried that stuff in W:EE, then your dispersion circle would be so damn huge that whole enemy starting sector would fit inside without even touching the edges.

This was for 2 reasons. First, dispersion rapidly increased with distance, so if you wanted any reasonably effective performance from your arty, then you had to bring it as close to front as possible and keep supply trucks running between arty and FOB. Second, uncorrected fire was really inaccurate and generally worth it only in rare circumstances and you needed to have amassed lots of guns.

One more relevant aspect was arty fire getting very noticeably more accurate with corrected shots as firing continued, so if you reacted in time, then it was generally not too hard to get out of harms way, but if you simply hoped that it is not a big deal, then arty would eventually deal very serious damage.

[molnibalage]

Originally posted by Sarvik:

Originally posted by Radioshow:

less and weaker artillery is why W:EE was so much better. Big maps, lots of room and arty that did the job but was not overkill, except the smerch lol. Cluster artillery is just cancerous. Access to so much arty makes too many people use it too much and then cant play the ground game and lose then complain.

W:EE actually had quite a lot of arty available. One deck slot gave you like 8 Malkas, and pretty sure AUF1 and Dana availability was same or even higher.

Fundamental difference with W:EE arty was dispersion. In W:RD you can blindfire from your starting sector to enemy starting sector and still have very reasonable dispersion circle. If you tried that stuff in W:EE, then your dispersion circle would be so damn huge that whole enemy starting sector would fit inside without even touching the edges.

This was for 2 reasons. First, dispersion rapidly increased with distance, so if you wanted any reasonably effective performance from your arty, then you had to bring it as close to front as possible and keep supply trucks running between arty and FOB. Second, uncorrected fire was really inaccurate and generally worth it only in rare circumstances and you needed to have amassed lots of guns.

One more relevant aspect was arty fire getting very noticeably more accurate with corrected shots as firing continued, so if you reacted in time, then it was generally not too hard to get out of harms way, but if you simply hoped that it is not a big deal, then arty would eventually deal very serious damage.

The non range dependent dispersion of the tube arty is one of the largest stupidity of the ALB + RD.

[Fezzy]

Originally posted by Advisor:

Will this game have cluster artillery? I hope not, because I don't personally understand what good it brings to the game (in WG:RD): it's not really needed nor brings any interesting new to tactics. Usually it just makes games depend more on randomness. It can be used to command snipe, without any skill. And it doesn't even need spotting... ATACMS btw is just so broken. Cluster pretty much is the thing that ruins WG:RD the most (which is still good game though). For cases where enemy stacks too many units to one place and there's no way to go through, you're just playing in too small map with too many points. Usually one can do a lot with smokes as well.

I also think artillery generally is way too strong (in WG:RD): you don't need to see any unit, you just know that there has to be something in that forest or town, and then you just click "Destroy". I wish that in WARNO, the arty wouldn't kill too much, but that it would affect the new Cohesion a lot. So that arty would be for softening the defence before attack, and not just "let's kill everything there".

Thanks

Arty really isn't strong at all under 4v4s, but anything larger than 2v2 starts getting impossible to balance for because there's to many players with to much equipment.

As for clusters? They're mostly useless minus the overkill rocket platforms and those aren't good because they're clusters (cluster munitions are horrifically bad in RD, most are terrible at actually killing vehicles, and they do nothing to infantry so over all HE is far better in every situation.) they're good because they unload insane amounts of fire power really fast from across the map but even then they're not really good for more than memes and 10v10s where you can yoink supply from 3 fobs at once.

Honestly most arty is pathetically bad and have 30 second aim time with no chance of actually killing anything unless they're amassed which again isn't really doable in anything below 4v4 which again are just not possible to balance reasonably.