79. Guards Tank Division

[Mahti]

79. Guards Tank Division seems like worthy opponent for US 3rd Armored. Overall division seems nice but here are some ideas how it could be improved regarding balance and historical accuracy. For the last couple of days I have been playing mostly with US deck and so far it feels slightly stronger than USSR deck. Cold War Soviet army has also been for long a point of interest for my historical research so few "mistakes" caught my eye. So here's my review of the deck.

Logistics
Looks nice. Enough choices for my liking. BRDM-2U seems to be in every game out there but as far as I know it was not very common command vehicle IRL. I think BMP based command vehicle would be enough.

Infantry
Motostrelki (Metis): Soviet Tank Divisions didn't have any Metis armed infantry. All infantry was BMP equipped and BMP equipped troops didn't have ATGMs since their IFV already had them. Balance wise I think they should be removed so that the future Motor Rifle deck(s) would have something special of their own.

Motostrelki (BTR): All motor rifle battalions in Soviet tank divisions were BMP equipped. No motostrelki were BTR equipped. Division's few BTRs were equipping engineers and recon troops. BTR equipped motostrelki also seem quite poor choice and deck wouldn't suffer their loss. Maybe they should also be reserved for motor rifle divisions. Every soviet division had at least one Motor Rifle Battalion trained to helicopter operations. So maybe this unit could be replaced with Mi-8 transported version?

Tanks
T-80U: As far as I know 79. guards was not equipped with any T-80U. I guess they are included only to balance M1A1(HA). Personally I would prefer to see both removed but I can understand their inclusion to appease "heavy metal fans".

-T-64BV: According to CFE data 79. Guards was equipped purely with T-80s. I don't see a reason why deck would need another expensive high quality tank. I think more interesting would be to see some earlier model and cheaper version of T-80.

Infantry
Overall recon section looks nice and varied and feels very appropriate for Soviets.

Razvedka: Choice of transports seems nice. According to CFE treaty data divisions recon battalion was equipped with some BTR-60s. They would have been used to transport recon squads so maybe they could be added as an option for Razvedka.

Anti-Air
I think this section still needs most work, especially balancing wise. I just participated in a game where our planes flew over soviet extensive AA screen with impunity. At the moment it seems that soviet AA units are poorly capable of dealing with american planes and helos.

Igla: Otherwise ok, but I would add BMP as an option for transport since IRL igla teams had their own BMP transports.

Osa: According to CFV data 79. Guard's was not equipped with OSA, but SA-6 Kub. Both are quite similar options but maybe this thing could be changed at some later date.

Tunguska: Tunguska feels at the moment very expensive but not very powerful unit. Maybe I'm missing something but it feels much inferior to it's iterations in Wargame.

Buk: I feel Buk is slightly out of place here, especially since US don't have HAWK. Both really shouldn't feature in tactical battlefield. Unit itself feels much less efficient than in example at ALB.

Helicopters
Mi-24V: This unit is crying for more varied weapon load outs in the same way Apache has.
Pact especially would need ATGM helicopter.

Planes
Nice and varied choice of planes. MiG-31 seems slightly out of place and on the other hand I'm wondering why we aren't seeing the very common (in 1989) MiG-29 in the deck?

So it seems we have a nice division overall that could have some minor tweaks to bring it closer to it's historical equivalent and also to give it little extra boost. It would be cool to hear if other people feel same, especially regarding balancing issues.

[JDPUK]

The BRDM-2U was a frequently used command vehicle during this era as were various BTRs and BMPs. There were dismounted troops with the Metis ATGM, no doubt about it, not sure with this division though the Russians definitely had them. The T-80u should be in this game, no question, debate should only be for what divisions. Strongly disagree on the T-64s, there was a reason this tank wasn’t exported to any significant degree, it was a damn good tank for its time, should be included as well. This is a game after all, stripping it down to barebones will only hurt sales and the overall quality. Ultimately we aren’t playing for world peace or anything, it’s still intended for entertainment and gaming.

[Hot Single In Your Area]

Fully agreed on Hind in particular

[LilBadWitch]

Originally posted by Mahti:

Tanks
T-80U: As far as I know 79. guards was not equipped with any T-80U. I guess they are included only to balance M1A1(HA). Personally I would prefer to see both removed but I can understand their inclusion to appease "heavy metal fans".

It's very likely every M1A1 in the 3rd US Armored Division was the M1A1HA version and that by mid-1989 that they didn't have any M1A1s left in the main US Armored Divisions in Europe and those were left in the Mechanized Divisions.


The MIG-29 and F-16 should be in all decks for their respective sides as prominent as they were.

[Rabidnid]

It wasn't unknown for the MRR of a tank division to be entirely BMPs but 2 battalions of BTRs is just as likely.

[crazyfizik]

Originally posted by JDPUK:

The BRDM-2U was a frequently used command vehicle during this era as were various BTRs and BMPs. There were dismounted troops with the Metis ATGM, no doubt about it, not sure with this division though the Russians definitely had them. The T-80u should be in this game, no question, debate should only be for what divisions. Strongly disagree on the T-64s, there was a reason this tank wasn’t exported to any significant degree, it was a damn good tank for its time, should be included as well. This is a game after all, stripping it down to barebones will only hurt sales and the overall quality. Ultimately we aren’t playing for world peace or anything, it’s still intended for entertainment and gaming.

Specifically, in tank divisions, all motorized infantry used only infantry fighting vehicles. Armoured personnel carriers in tank divisions were used very sparingly and were only used by scouts in the security and intelligence companies. To be better understood, in a tank division, only 20-30 armored personnel carriers will account for 200-300 tanks and 300-400 IFVs. Also, there were no motorized infantry with Metis in the tank divisions, simply because ATGMs were installed on all IFVs and tanks and the firepower of the tank divisions was terrifying.

In motor rifle divisions, the situation was a little different: 2 motorized rifle regiments used BMP-1 and BMP-2, and 2 other motorized rifle regiments used BTR-60, BTR-70 and BTR-80 (another variant of the staff of a motor rifile division is 1 tank regiment, 1 motorized infantry regiment on an IFV and 2 motorized infantry regiments on an APC). That's just how the motorized rifle divisions were armed with infantry ATGMs in the regiments on the APC: each company had 3 motorized rifle platoons (9 squads), 1 control squad and 1 anti-tank squad, which was equipped with 3 ATGM Metis (note that the number of ATGMs in a company corresponds to the number of platoons).

As for tanks, T-80B and T-80BV tanks were mainly in service with Soviet military units in Germany. In some divisions, instead of the T-80B/BV, they could stand on the T-64B/BV armament, but most likely they were military units stationed closer to the borders. I'm not sure about the 79th Tank Division (most likely there were only T-80B/BV), but in the 1st Guards Army (headquarters in Dresden) only the T-80B/BV were in service. It is also possible that there could be old T-62, T-64 (not B/BV) and T-80 (not B/BV) in warehouses or in training units, but they were definitely not used by active military units of the GSFG in late 80s. The T-80U and T-80UD has never been used outside the USSR.

BRDM-2U definitely could not be used in GSFG. To be honest, BRDM was used very sparingly, and they could hardly be found outside of separate anti-tank divisions and intelligence companies. R-145BM, BMP-1KSh, BRM-1K, PRP-3 and PRP-4, were most used used for command, reconnaissance and control.

However in Germany, the largest Soviet guns were located — 2S7 Pion in the 34th Guards Artillery Division.

The Soviet troops in Germany were very specific — they were intended primarily for offensive operations and their weapons and equipment were atypically unified for the USSR.

In general, everything Mahti wrote is right. Potentially, Eugene Systems can introduce units that could potentially end up in Germany, but it is better to follow the historically known states of divisions. If someone wants to see other models of tanks that are different from the T-80B/BV, then these should be the corresponding divisions, for example, stationed in Magdeburg or in the USSR, in my opinion. Better less, but better :-)

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

It wasn't unknown for the MRR of a tank division to be entirely BMPs but 2 battalions of BTRs is just as likely.

In the GSVG tank divisions - no. But in the motorized rifle divisions there were 2 regiments per APC. If you add APK to tank divisions, then the whole point of tank divisions is lost, because they are designed to break through. But in the joint actions of different divisions, this is certainly possible: let one player play with a large number of tanks + infantry fighting vehicles, and the other player plays with a large number of armored personnel carriers with Metis + infantry fighting vehicles and a few tanks, then everything will be fair :-)

[Evil donut]

Yeah overall i like the 79. guard tanks division. I agree with your post here. Right now the AA on the soviet side feels rather "weak". I have played both sides right now and when i played the soviets the AA often missed a lot and we had very often situations were US planes just cluster bombed into our lines and flew away without any problems. And we had the whole area covered with AA.

Furthermore a lot of Wargame Veterans are using some bomber tactics which the soviet AA can not fight right now. I saw player drop cluster bombs basically very close to the soviet AA line and then they pusehd immediately the evac button. The planes must be basically OVER the AA and i have the feeling the AA range is a little bit short to fight this bomber runs. Most of the time the soviet AA don´t even fire, because it was out of range.

I tried the same against the US side and i lost my planes very fast.

The Tunguska is deffenetly overpriced for what it does right now.

Then the soviet Aircraft fighters. I had a fight with a Mig 31 against a F 15. My Mig shot all its missiles in our friendly territory at the F 15 and missed them all. The F 15 shot back twice and my Mig died immediately. I know the F 15 has 60 & accuracy and the MIG has 40%. The MIG 31 has 12000 m target range, but right now there is no reason to take the MIG 31 at all, because out of 4 missiles you are lucky when one hit at all. Of course the F 15 is the best fighter jet in the game right now and it was and still is one of the best jets in the whole world. But balance wise the Mig 31 is not great right now.

Yeah the pact really needs an ATGM helicopter. I am feeling this everytime i am playing the soviets.

[JDPUK]

Originally posted by crazyfizik:

Originally posted by JDPUK:

The BRDM-2U was a frequently used command vehicle during this era as were various BTRs and BMPs. There were dismounted troops with the Metis ATGM, no doubt about it, not sure with this division though the Russians definitely had them. The T-80u should be in this game, no question, debate should only be for what divisions. Strongly disagree on the T-64s, there was a reason this tank wasn’t exported to any significant degree, it was a damn good tank for its time, should be included as well. This is a game after all, stripping it down to barebones will only hurt sales and the overall quality. Ultimately we aren’t playing for world peace or anything, it’s still intended for entertainment and gaming.

Specifically, in tank divisions, all motorized infantry used only infantry fighting vehicles. Armoured personnel carriers in tank divisions were used very sparingly and were only used by scouts in the security and intelligence companies. To be better understood, in a tank division, only 20-30 armored personnel carriers will account for 200-300 tanks and 300-400 IFVs. Also, there were no motorized infantry with Metis in the tank divisions, simply because ATGMs were installed on all IFVs and tanks and the firepower of the tank divisions was terrifying.

In motor rifle divisions, the situation was a little different: 2 motorized rifle regiments used BMP-1 and BMP-2, and 2 other motorized rifle regiments used BTR-60, BTR-70 and BTR-80 (another variant of the staff of a motor rifile division is 1 tank regiment, 1 motorized infantry regiment on an IFV and 2 motorized infantry regiments on an APC). That's just how the motorized rifle divisions were armed with infantry ATGMs in the regiments on the APC: each company had 3 motorized rifle platoons (9 squads), 1 control squad and 1 anti-tank squad, which was equipped with 3 ATGM Metis (note that the number of ATGMs in a company corresponds to the number of platoons).

As for tanks, T-80B and T-80BV tanks were mainly in service with Soviet military units in Germany. In some divisions, instead of the T-80B/BV, they could stand on the T-64B/BV armament, but most likely they were military units stationed closer to the borders. I'm not sure about the 79th Tank Division (most likely there were only T-80B/BV), but in the 1st Guards Army (headquarters in Dresden) only the T-80B/BV were in service. It is also possible that there could be old T-62, T-64 (not B/BV) and T-80 (not B/BV) in warehouses or in training units, but they were definitely not used by active military units of the GSFG in late 80s. The T-80U and T-80UD has never been used outside the USSR.

BRDM-2U definitely could not be used in GSFG. To be honest, BRDM was used very sparingly, and they could hardly be found outside of separate anti-tank divisions and intelligence companies. R-145BM, BMP-1KSh, BRM-1K, PRP-3 and PRP-4, were most used used for command, reconnaissance and control.

However in Germany, the largest Soviet guns were located — 2S7 Pion in the 34th Guards Artillery Division.

The Soviet troops in Germany were very specific — they were intended primarily for offensive operations and their weapons and equipment were atypically unified for the USSR.

In general, everything Mahti wrote is right. Potentially, Eugene Systems can introduce units that could potentially end up in Germany, but it is better to follow the historically known states of divisions. If someone wants to see other models of tanks that are different from the T-80B/BV, then these should be the corresponding divisions, for example, stationed in Magdeburg or in the USSR, in my opinion. Better less, but better :-)

Originally posted by Rabidnid:

It wasn't unknown for the MRR of a tank division to be entirely BMPs but 2 battalions of BTRs is just as likely.

In the GSVG tank divisions - no. But in the motorized rifle divisions there were 2 regiments per APC. If you add APK to tank divisions, then the whole point of tank divisions is lost, because they are designed to break through. But in the joint actions of different divisions, this is certainly possible: let one player play with a large number of tanks + infantry fighting vehicles, and the other player plays with a large number of armored personnel carriers with Metis + infantry fighting vehicles and a few tanks, then everything will be fair :-)

Exceptionally great post and valid points, this is some real deal knowledge and very impressive!

[Bullero]

Nice overview, I agree with everything. But IMO Eugen gonna rebalance initial decks anyways, and current look of this divisions is mostly based on need to showcase many different units and mechanics.

[Skua]

Absolutely agree, especially with the AA issue. Tunguska feels really overpriced and underavaliable considering what it can do, in all my games its really struggled against helicopters especially which is a bit disappointing but i think an easy fix

Massive props to OP for the great research!

[Tristacomand (IIIAPAIIIKA)]

Originally posted by LilBadWitch:

Originally posted by Mahti:

Tanks
T-80U: As far as I know 79. guards was not equipped with any T-80U. I guess they are included only to balance M1A1(HA). Personally I would prefer to see both removed but I can understand their inclusion to appease "heavy metal fans".

It's very likely every M1A1 in the 3rd US Armored Division was the M1A1HA version and that by mid-1989 that they didn't have any M1A1s left in the main US Armored Divisions in Europe and those were left in the Mechanized Divisions.

This would be true, because according to Hunnicutt, only 3 divisions were equipped with M1A1 by the end of 1988. Similarly also according to Hunnicutt M1A1HA only began production in September 1988. For operation Desert Shield, they had to move hundreds of tanks around in advance, spend 3 months planning how to upgrade their tanks to HA standard, then spent 4 months converting about 1,200 or so.

https://ahec.armywarcollege.edu/documents/Modernization_and_Readiness_Study.pdf
Pages 40-41 explain.

[horsesarse]

Thanks for good posts guys! I hope developers hear the thoughts of history enthusiasts who also have good ideas of balancing the game 🤗

[BroVVn]

Well written post! Big fan of making the Divs as historically accurate as possible (balanced ofc). It will lead to more interesting variations between Divs.

[Bras]

Add More CVs to Soviet! This is where disballance is! Tunguska Is Awesome! It can kill with easy infantry I`m serious chek it out! And dont touch BTRs! Its an option you dont have to pick em up. And i dont get it how satchel charges work. Engineers just reload them and reload

[JDPUK]

Originally posted by Bras:

Add More CVs to Soviet! This is where disballance is! Tunguska Is Awesome! It can kill with easy infantry I`m serious chek it out! And dont touch BTRs! Its an option you dont have to pick em up. And i dont get it how satchel charges work. Engineers just reload them and reload

This is realistic, it’s been used in this role multiple times as has its successor, the Pantsir.

[FERN]

i hear you completely but i feel the 79th needs the metis infantry tio be able to balance with the mech rifles and dragon fireteams