Thoughts on the new Frostpunk 2 Gameplay style.

[MeltdownLou]

Starting the prologue of Frostpunk 2. I felt completely helpless, with the new gameplay style.
It took me playing 3 hours before I finally survived. And even then, I needed to send away the elders just to barely get by. With nearly no hope at all.

Ive heard people describe Frostpunk 2's gameplay as the following "Simplistic" "Gineric" "Bland compared to the original" "Dumbed down" and the most shocking comment of all. "Not for Frostpunk 1 fans"
It's undeniable that the Gameplay of Frostpunk 2 is nothing like frostpunk 1. I still enjoy the gameplay. And I would like to hear everyone elses experiences and thoughts on the new Gameplay style.

[Markus Reese]

My issue is that it is too much a puzzle game. The big detractor for me so far has been the save/load to get district layouts I like.

Second part is from prologue experience and the complete lack of sensation that it is getting colder.

Cold being nothing more than a heat deficit meter.

[MeltdownLou]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

My issue is that it is too much a puzzle game. The big detractor for me so far has been the save/load to get district layouts I like.

Second part is from prologue experience and the complete lack of sensation that it is getting colder.

Cold being nothing more than a heat deficit meter.

Yea that was one of the main reasons why I struggled. I was like WTF why are they all dying now? And I also feel like the heat mechanic wasn't properly explained. As I assumed it was like in the first game via upgrades. Even now in new london, it's hard for me to really understand how cold it is.

[Inkidu]

Originally posted by Markus Reese:

My issue is that it is too much a puzzle game. The big detractor for me so far has been the save/load to get district layouts I like.

Second part is from prologue experience and the complete lack of sensation that it is getting colder.

Cold being nothing more than a heat deficit meter.

That's why I didn't like Frostpunk 1. With no RNG, random map elements, then it just becomes a matter of finding the right order to place everything. No randomness in a survival city builder means there's a most-correct solution to employ and once you've got it the game loses all its purpose.

Guess I'm not getting this one either.

[RTF Legion]

It’s jarring at first. Heat coverage is no longer the issue, but having all the materials and raw resources. It’s supposed to convey a larger scale. The prologue takes place over ~1 1/2 year. I personally enjoy it. I think it would be awesome to play a full go around. Build new London in FP1 then hop into FP2 and the game goes to a more “macro” society manager. Pretty sweet. It can turn into just juggling the bars at the top but that’s kind of most strategy games tbh. The settings better than ever. You can still zoom in too! There is a little magnify glass button in the hub menus. The council mechanics, and citizen story pop-ups more than make up for being able to click on individual citizens, to me at least.

[MeltdownLou]

Originally posted by RTF Legion:

It’s jarring at first. Heat coverage is no longer the issue, but having all the materials and raw resources. It’s supposed to convey a larger scale. The prologue takes place over ~1 1/2 year. I personally enjoy it. I think it would be awesome to play a full go around. Build new London in FP1 then hop into FP2 and the game goes to a more “macro” society manager. Pretty sweet. It can turn into just juggling the bars at the top but that’s kind of most strategy games tbh. The settings better than ever. You can still zoom in too! There is a little magnify glass button in the hub menus. The council mechanics, and citizen story pop-ups more than make up for being able to click on individual citizens, to me at least.

I actually did something similar. Knowing frostpunk 2 would continue the story of New London I played the original new home scenario all the way through. Total population 600-700 roughly. Survivors, 300 roughly. lol

[Zarquon]

to note, a game can be simplistic, generic, bland and dumbed down whilst still being difficult to win. Imagine a simple clicker game where you just tap the screen in one place, but you have to do it extremely fast, so much so that it is almost unbeatable.

What i'm saying is because you found the game challenging does not, in itself, invalidate the criticisms listed. Both can be true at the same time.

[Navin]

Just finished my first story run... it's very much Frostpunk 2 more than Frostpunk too.

I would describe the feeling as distant, the game pings you every week with "26 people died from overtime shifts" and i feel nothing, This is the consequence of scaling up the city to a huge size. I felt very little focus on Tech and expansion outside of meeting needs and political demands. The politicing isn't as bad as i thought it would be, but it starts to become a chore more than an interesting gameplay feature.

I enjoyed what I've played so far, it's not Frostpunk, but it is Frostpunk 2 and that fine.

[Merloga]

Originally posted by Zarquon:

to note, a game can be simplistic, generic, bland and dumbed down whilst still being difficult to win. Imagine a simple clicker game where you just tap the screen in one place, but you have to do it extremely fast, so much so that it is almost unbeatable.

What i'm saying is because you found the game challenging does not, in itself, invalidate the criticisms listed. Both can be true at the same time.

This, it's literally just juggle the bars, no more. And the zooming in aswell is pathetic. Yeah! Let me look at funny light trails or people just running in circles! Yeah let me heat my city to + degrees but nothing changes! Super cool zoom feature guys! I hate people (not you) coping about a (currently) inferior game with a lot to fix.

[adrien_perleflamme]

It is for FP 1 fans, just not all of them.

To me, most of the criticisms had nothing to do with gameplay. Bugs, look & feel, narrative scale and UI were criticized, but mostly not gameplay.

You still build things that produce resources and fulfil the needs of citizens. You still have to look for new options to replace your first options, as they can only harness very scarce resources. You still continue your research to make breakthroughs and offer yourself more and more options to survive. You still have to make your decisions while taking into account the whims of a population that have desires sometimes going against its own survival. You still go explore the frostlands and discover points of interest to try and find whatever can give you an edge against whatever problems you're facing.

Also, some people have complained it's too easy even on Captain's difficulty, while others have complained it's too hard even on Citizen's difficulty. Like any other game, essentially.

[Merloga]

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

It is for FP 1 fans, just not all of them.

To me, most of the criticisms had nothing to do with gameplay. Bugs, look & feel, narrative scale and UI were criticized, but mostly not gameplay.

You still build things that produce resources and fulfil the needs of citizens. You still have to look for new options to replace your first options, as they can only harness very scarce resources. You still continue your research to make breakthroughs and offer yourself more and more options to survive. You still have to make your decisions while taking into account the whims of a population that have desires sometimes going against its own survival. You still go explore the frostlands and discover points of interest to try and find whatever can give you an edge against whatever problems you're facing.

Also, some people have complained it's too easy even on Captain's difficulty, while others have complained it's too hard even on Citizen's difficulty. Like any other game, essentially.

Yeah, nah. That is 100% your subjective opinion my man, the game is piss poor balanced. It's just about juggling the bars, and once figured out, a cake walk. There is no real choice between buildings unless your puposefully handicap yourself as adaptaion is mostly better in 99% of cases, with a few progress exceptions. Same for resources, where do I NEED to get better sawmills? So my resources run dry even faster?! Hell no! I prefer having STABLE sources so I'm FORCED to use adaptaion once again for settlement heating. There is no real challange unless you want to play how you want of course, then the devs made sure you have a handicap...
And don't get me started on the super simple politics that you can easily manipulate.
And yes, it's for like the 3% of players that REALLY wanted this, not an expanded FP1 (not the same!)

[adrien_perleflamme]

Originally posted by Merloga:

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

It is for FP 1 fans, just not all of them.

To me, most of the criticisms had nothing to do with gameplay. Bugs, look & feel, narrative scale and UI were criticized, but mostly not gameplay.

You still build things that produce resources and fulfil the needs of citizens. You still have to look for new options to replace your first options, as they can only harness very scarce resources. You still continue your research to make breakthroughs and offer yourself more and more options to survive. You still have to make your decisions while taking into account the whims of a population that have desires sometimes going against its own survival. You still go explore the frostlands and discover points of interest to try and find whatever can give you an edge against whatever problems you're facing.

Also, some people have complained it's too easy even on Captain's difficulty, while others have complained it's too hard even on Citizen's difficulty. Like any other game, essentially.

Yeah, nah. That is 100% your subjective opinion my man, the game is piss poor balanced.

Hence why I literally wrote "To me". You're literally agreeing with me, here.

Originally posted by Merloga:

It's just about juggling the bars, and once figured out, a cake walk.

Good job, you described FP 1, here. Besides, you know there are other buildings than adaptation and progress ones, right? No problem so far with nearly all idea trees, then, I guess?

Also, FP 1 had balance "problems" too, notably between faith and order. Why choose order when you can have faith, with its 0 heating & job requirement temple, churches and shrines, its steam-core-free hospital and its heat producing building? The thing is, over the time, I realized balance wasn't the studio's goal at all to begin with. To me, it's the same between adaptation and progress. Maybe some people don't like it, but not everything needs to be balanced in a single player game anyway. It's just that people have been accustomed to balance being a priority due to multiplayer games.

FP 1 also had no real challenge once you know what to do.

All I'm seeing is discussions that were already happening with FP 1. Subjective takes, at most, which is understandable since fun is a matter of taste, a subjective matter. So maybe let's get away from trying to pretend we can speak for everyone or claim anything objective, here. My take is subjective, yours too, now what?

Originally posted by Merloga:

And yes, it's for like the 3% of players that REALLY wanted this, not an expanded FP1 (not the same!)

Where did you get that number from, exactly?

[Merloga]

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

Originally posted by Merloga:

Yeah, nah. That is 100% your subjective opinion my man, the game is piss poor balanced.

Hence why I literally wrote "To me". You're literally agreeing with me, here.

Originally posted by Merloga:

It's just about juggling the bars, and once figured out, a cake walk.

Good job, you described FP 1, here. Besides, you know there are other buildings than adaptation and progress ones, right? No problem so far with nearly all idea trees, then, I guess?

Also, FP 1 had balance "problems" too, notably between faith and order. Why choose order when you can have faith, with its 0 heating & job requirement temple, churches and shrines, its steam-core-free hospital and its heat producing building? The thing is, over the time, I realized balance wasn't the studio's goal at all to begin with. To me, it's the same between adaptation and progress. Maybe some people don't like it, but not everything needs to be balanced in a single player game anyway. It's just that people have been accustomed to balance being a priority due to multiplayer games.

FP 1 also had no real challenge once you know what to do.

All I'm seeing is discussions that were already happening with FP 1. Subjective takes, at most, which is understandable since fun is a matter of taste, a subjective matter. So maybe let's get away from trying to pretend we can speak for everyone or claim anything objective, here. My take is subjective, yours too, now what?

Originally posted by Merloga:

And yes, it's for like the 3% of players that REALLY wanted this, not an expanded FP1 (not the same!)

Where did you get that number from, exactly?

Yes I overread your "to me" and the number came out my ass, because I only read a very minute amount of people actually praise the game, like you.

Then again, no I don't care for super extreme balance in a singleplayer game. But when I'm presented with a choice and one is not only superior but also just not a handicap then I really have a problem with that since it railroads you unless you enjoy gimping yourself. I prefer a choice being "Do I need/want these bonis or those?" not "Do I want bonis? or a malus?"

Overall I just want them to put some effort into the game, since it's been on a decline like I haven't seen in a while for such an anticipated sequel. Was FP1 not the hardest once you knew what to do, yes that is normal with most games. But FP2 is literally just juggle bars, no visual rewards, nor really gameplay wise, nothing to dump resources into like a mega project, not even the vibe is the same since you are (by design) more disconnected, so at least let me really pimp my City and THRIVE, not just "mehrvive" (since survival is trivial)

[adrien_perleflamme]

Here is the thing: you have progress and adaptation. One is most of the time better in nearly all aspects. And I say nearly all aspects because it also means you're choosing adaptation over progress zeitgeist, which means you're destabilizing the politics of the city. It is the drawback, since it means you'll have to solve the problems it creates: instead of having all factions neutral to you, at least one of them if not two will need you to make more effort so that everyone can still work and live mostly hand in hand. So, is it the superior choice? No, it's actually a compromise. You're creating a political debt and you have to pay it back one day or another. On Citizen's difficulty, fortunately, that debt is easy enough to pay back to not make the game even harder.

I think we all want them to put some effort into the game. It's not bug free and it would benefit from a lot of polish.

Also, we waited for years in FP 1 before getting anything close to a mega project, be it in endless or through a DLC scenario.

[Merloga]

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

Here is the thing: you have progress and adaptation. One is most of the time better in nearly all aspects. And I say nearly all aspects because it also means you're choosing adaptation over progress zeitgeist, which means you're destabilizing the politics of the city. It is the drawback, since it means you'll have to solve the problems it creates: instead of having all factions neutral to you, at least one of them if not two will need you to make more effort so that everyone can still work and live mostly hand in hand. So, is it the superior choice? No, it's actually a compromise. You're creating a political debt and you have to pay it back one day or another. On Citizen's difficulty, fortunately, that debt is easy enough to pay back to not make the game even harder.

I think we all want them to put some effort into the game. It's not bug free and it would benefit from a lot of polish.

Also, we waited for years in FP 1 before getting anything close to a mega project, be it in endless or through a DLC scenario.

It is not a compromise or "Political debt" because you choose adapation over progress. You ahve the penalty with BOTH buildings, one is the malus version one is the op version and then the neutral "I'm here too!" option. Like I said the politics juggling is super easy and I don't see how I'm in any "Political debt" because I signed adaptation over progess(?). The game is just horrenously balanced (like you said with faith and order in 1) and REALLY needs a revamp to progress buildings.
Also yes, I don't mind the choices for Merit/Equality, seems alright to me. Reason/Tradition feels a bit more black and white.
Either you go full machine and disregard that people are humans with feelings or go the actual rational way, since every single human feels and tradition, well, cares for people's moral/spirits.

But yeah overall there is 0 reason to not pick most adaptation over progress since both have the same level of negative impact, and even if you run a ctiy on progress and use mainly adaptation buildings, you just plop a few arenas down and ez, pz.

[adrien_perleflamme]

Originally posted by Merloga:

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

Here is the thing: you have progress and adaptation. One is most of the time better in nearly all aspects. And I say nearly all aspects because it also means you're choosing adaptation over progress zeitgeist, which means you're destabilizing the politics of the city. It is the drawback, since it means you'll have to solve the problems it creates: instead of having all factions neutral to you, at least one of them if not two will need you to make more effort so that everyone can still work and live mostly hand in hand. So, is it the superior choice? No, it's actually a compromise. You're creating a political debt and you have to pay it back one day or another. On Citizen's difficulty, fortunately, that debt is easy enough to pay back to not make the game even harder.

I think we all want them to put some effort into the game. It's not bug free and it would benefit from a lot of polish.

Also, we waited for years in FP 1 before getting anything close to a mega project, be it in endless or through a DLC scenario.

It is not a compromise or "Political debt" because you choose adapation over progress. You ahve the penalty with BOTH buildings, one is the malus version one is the op version and then the neutral "I'm here too!" option. Like I said the politics juggling is super easy and I don't see how I'm in any "Political debt" because I signed adaptation over progess(?). The game is just horrenously balanced (like you said with faith and order in 1) and REALLY needs a revamp to progress buildings.
Also yes, I don't mind the choices for Merit/Equality, seems alright to me. Reason/Tradition feels a bit more black and white.
Either you go full machine and disregard that people are humans with feelings or go the actual rational way, since every single human feels and tradition, well, cares for people's moral/spirits.

But yeah overall there is 0 reason to not pick most adaptation over progress since both have the same level of negative impact, and even if you run a ctiy on progress and use mainly adaptation buildings, you just plop a few arenas down and ez, pz.

Choosing Progress over Adaptation is the same political debt as choosing Adaptation over Progress, indeed. But you can choose one half of the Progress/Adaptation techs with Adaptation and the other half with Progress. It's less efficient in terms of resources directly coming from the buildings, but it keeps the political equilibrium. To achieve that, you have to accept choosing Progress tech buildings half of the time, more or less.

In Citizen's difficulty, faction relations are easy, probably to make sure players first master resource production gameplay before needing to focus on political resources (relations, tension and trust), just like Prologue doesn't focus on district synergies (which is a mistake, in my opinion, but I digress). In Captain's difficulty, you're more constrained, so much that breaking the equilibrium for building efficiency is more of a trap, unless if you're ready to sacrifice an entire faction of your people.