pls nerf everything on Captain + How to be OP in FP2

[NecromancerPig]

Everything in this rant is taken from my experience playing Utopia Builder on the Windswept Peaks map on Captain difficulty, with Foragers/Icebloods & Machinists/Technocrats, usually with Lords or Thinkers as the "why are you even here" community. I try to keep the zeitgeists even to avoid having to research and replace offending buildings and laws.

There is ALWAYS enough of everything. Enough food, fuel, mats and people to do all the work. Every Frostland tile contains more, and more, and more. For the love of God, pls nerf Apex Workers. When combined with the other Adaption Laws and passive buffs, Apex essentially removes the need for planning, prioritization or any other anti-failure initiative. Yes, people die from Attendants/Apex, but the replenishment rate doesn't seem to care and falling trust levels mean nothing to a Dictator-for-life or to a Steward with Secret Police. If you keep your promises and grant some agendas you can probably get by with just Bureau of Propaganda. Add a few select Equality laws (ie: Heatpipe Watch) into the mix and now we've got an extremely productive populace that can get by on minimum Heat probably because they're so drunk, which is a great segway into...

City-run Alcohol Shops is completely stupid, in that it generates more money than a Goods surplus and a 400-staff brothel combined. No consequence exists for having a populace drunker than late-stage Soviet Union, just more Heatstamps for you to spend on things you don't need, like extra production output.....

Chemical Synergy (Chemical Additives + Chemical Hothouse + Excessive Fertilization) doesn't quite negate the need for a Food Colony but it's pretty close. Durable Light Bulbs (Durable Goods + Something I can't remember) does the same but for Goods and by extension, Mats. Surely there is something coming that will change all this good fortune...

I cannot understand what the point of a Whiteout is when it's possible to rig up a Coal Settlement which is 2 tiles away from the City, add Skyways & Settlement Heating to it, then sit back and do jack squat while your Coal output soars past 4 figures and it's -120 degrees C outside, all for the low, low price of 2000 Workforce and a core, and that's without the use of Stimulants Factories or Advanced Coal Mines/Advanced Pumpjacks. Adaptive Pumps (Stage 2 Adaption Generator Upgrade) turns your stockpile of 250 000 Coal and/or Oil into some incomprehensibly high number and I have never used a Stage 3 Generator Upgrade in Utopia Builder. We can take hits to production output because our needs barely exist. Heat bonuses from construction are severely overpowered when combined with the many, many other things that lower heat demand.

First Filtration Towers built in week 200 because 3.5-4 years of smog inhalation is negligible, apparently. First Hospital built in week 350, because who knows why we can get by with no Hospitals for 7 years, those Infected Badges and Weather-Centric Shifts sure are effective. First Watchtowers & Prisons built mere months before before the outbreak of full-blown civil conflict because Martial Law is overpowered. Why does steam exist? If the city ever suffered an emergency, the shifts of the same name might have a use.

I have not complained about politics/council hall or the civil war and it's many possible conclusions because they are the only mechanics keeping me interested at this point.

The game remains challenging (and fun) for as long as you do not fully understand it. When it clicks, it's a snoozefest. On Captain, all production rate increases need nerfed, all heat demand reductions need nerfed, all population gains need nerfed and real consequences for fiscally-beneficial policies could be balanced for all difficulties because I M M E R S I O N is the real Captain here.

EXAMPLES:
Alcoholics causing all sorts of hijinx in the workplace, more events ranging from lowered production all the way up to disaster-level loss of life in conjunction with a severely heightened strain on the healthcare system, same for the addicts that should arise from the use of narcotics whether stimulant or opioid. There should be options to address these new problems that aren't just repealing the law that caused them.

Banning fraternization during Heatpipe Watch could have a consequence, like lowered population growth, heightened tension and an increase in crime. Criminals then bolster the numbers of radical factions if they aren't rehabilitated.

The girl who was separated from her mother at the gate due to Allow Productive Outsiders could actually make her displeasure known in a way that cannot be ignored or covered up, like industrial sabotage, which cascades into lowered relations and rising tension/protests.

Add social friction events for Apex Workers, Machine Attendants and anything else that affects the value of the workforce. Combining Machine Attendants with City-run Alcohol could result in something truly catastrophic, like an automaton's core exploding, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ loonies. Apex Workers + Stimulants Factory could result in a health crisis due to mass heart explosions from chuds volunteering for 24hr shifts whilst on amphets so they can get accepted into the Icebloods coolkids club. More explosions = more fun. The potential for immersion in this game has no limit and I just want my ass kicked the way FP1 used to kick it.

Have 33-40% of all Frostland tiles contain nothing but the WEIGHT OF YOUR OWN FAILURE.

Thankyou for reading and I hope you nerds have a lovely day.

[adrien_perleflamme]

My guess? Like FP 1, they'll add some setting to enjoy a more difficult gameplay in endless mode. That's what they did back then because people had the very same complaints. It took a few months to get there, though.

To me, the main problem is population growth is too easy. Apex Workers and Secret Police are extremely powerful, but it kills the population. It should force you to actually go for laws that have big downsides but allow you to get back some acceptable population growth to maintain a good population size.

Maybe, just maybe population growth should have a negative retro feedback, with the more people you have, the more it's difficult to increase the population growth ticker. This way, given a population growth total modifier except coming from total population (and except deaths, obviously), you'd have a target total population equilibrium you're slowly reaching over time (through increase or decrease of population): if you really want to have a somewhat high population, you really need to go and take population growth measures, because we're in dire circumstances where people don't think about making babies (rather than times of prosperity when people copulate like crazy). And it's even worse if you have measures that reduce population growth or outright kill your people (like Apex Workers, Automatons, problems with all five basic needs and such) and thus you have to go even more of an extra step to counteract such downsides.

The game would be more difficult, as any misstep can impact your workforce and thus your capacity to improve your situation. This way, you are interested in having at least some idle workforce as it stands like life points that can endure problems for a little while until you solve it or until there's no idle worker anymore and the situation worsens over time.

[Harris]

Originally posted by NecromancerPig:

Yes, people die from Attendants/Apex, but the replenishment rate doesn't seem to care and falling trust levels mean nothing to a Dictator-for-life or to a Steward with Secret Police.

Balancing clearly does not assume Captain's Authority as baseline experience. Yes, there are clearly optimal ways to play. But consider all the players who are choosing morally right (if inefficient) options in every event. And the casual players, of course. Frostpunk 1's Extreme wasn't always trivial for me, I still recall how it took me some learning from amordron and snuggleform before I got there.

Originally posted by NecromancerPig:

you can probably get by with just Bureau of Propaganda

I'll tell you more, you can get by even without it. In fact, there's an achievement for it.

Originally posted by NecromancerPig:

City-run Alcohol Shops is completely stupid, in that it generates more money than a Goods surplus and a 400-staff brothel combined. No consequence exists for having a populace drunker than late-stage Soviet Union, just more Heatstamps for you to spend on things you don't need, like extra production output.....

Equality as a whole is one big Soviet Union meme, so it makes sense for vodka-driven economy to be OP. But since you're a few steps away from Levelling which lets you nationalize means of production, money is quite irrelevant when going Equality anyways.

Best part? There's an achievement for spamming Levelling, so it's very by design and not something I ever see them changing.

Originally posted by NecromancerPig:

First Watchtowers & Prisons built mere months before before the outbreak of full-blown civil conflict because Martial Law is overpowered.

As someone who rushes Steward's Militia and befriends Venturers for their ability, I don't even find myself in need of those...

Originally posted by NecromancerPig:

The game remains challenging (and fun) for as long as you do not fully understand it. When it clicks, it's a snoozefest.

Duh. It's a puzzle, and once you figure out a solution, there's no challenge anymore. First game was like that a lot, only it was more straightforward with fewer viable solutions.

I don't see them massively increasing difficulty for Captain, as people need to get those achievements somehow...

Originally posted by NecromancerPig:

Combining Machine Attendants with City-run Alcohol could result in something truly catastrophic, like an automaton's core exploding

I really like the existing arcs that are consequence of some wacky law combinations, so them doing more of this would definitely be much welcome.

[adrien_perleflamme]

Yeah, for me too, once you know, you know. I remember, in FP 1, when I figured I could manually open and close access to the kitchens so that people stop eating once per day and instead eat once every other day, it was a huge boost. Once you realize the first few days are critical to the whole run and that there's a game changer tactic in having a few 24h shifts directly on resources laying on the ground at the start of the game (when weather is nice and cosy), everything becomes easy. And at some point you also realize having high research speed with 4 workshops as soon as you can lets you steamroll weather changes and resource demand increases.

It's even more the case when you also realize it's a very cynical, political game where you benefit from planning solutions for problems you don't solve and wait until last moment, when people are fed up with their problems (like sleeping outside, having cold homes, having not enough hospitals, having too many bad meals in a row or having long shifts for too long) until you fully agree to their demands. Hope and discontent are easy to manage this way.

Back to FP 2, I agree balancing assumes you try to stay morally on a certain ethics viewpoint. Just like in FP 1, there are laws that you can enact that are overpowered (although less overpowered than in FP 2, they don't have the negative consequences FP 2 radical ideas have), but they have narrative consequences that are supposed to matter, because it's a narrative game. That's how you end up with endings such that "ok, you won, but was it really an actual win given what you sacrificed? Couldn't you do better than that? Was it necessary to go this far? " and such.

Whether you care or you don't about these "sacrifices" will necessarily change your take on the game and its balance. Like becoming a villain in a game where you're not really supposed to and there's not much in terms of downsides except a few people pissed at you and some mild negative consequences that nearly don't negatively impact difficulty.

[Harris]

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

Once you realize the first few days are critical to the whole run and that there's a game changer tactic in having a few 24h shifts directly on resources laying on the ground at the start of the game (when weather is nice and cosy), everything becomes easy.

The game assumes the domino effect is gonna hit you. Temperature plummets so your people get sick. They are sick so they can't work. They can't work so you can't produce enough food. You don't have enough food so people starve. And so on. 24 hour shifts allows you to prevent the domino and stay on top of challenges as they drop, trivializing the game.

Narrative has always been the strongest part of Frostpunk, but like before it hinges on you being a newbie.

Originally posted by adrien_perleflamme:

It's even more the case when you also realize it's a very cynical, political game

Something I like to do in the sequel is you can invest into guard squads early on and designate a community or two as your "cash cows". They'll hate you, which is in fact exactly what you want - hostile communities drift into an opposing faction, and the faction you can kick off the vote with secret police and freely pass whatever you want long before you get Captain's Authority. All while trivializing money early on.