Infused Memory should give a Mind Slot

[Magnnus]

It is thematically appropriate, and it will give Demonology a way to make better use of Fantastical units.

[CuddilyWuddily]

I agree. There is 0 interaction between Demonology and Demons. When I first got this game I played Demonologist expecting to make super Demons but Demonology only buffs mortals and Demons were just... there. So what's the point of Demonlogists having Occultism at all?

If I want Demons I go Artificer and grab Occultism because Glyphs on Demons is superior to Demons without anything.

Convince me that I'm wrong. Convince me that there is a reason to grab Occultism as a Demonologist and Demonology does absolutely nothing for Demons.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Should be noted that you can make demons with demon slots (upgraded mind slot) using the tools demonology already gives you.

It works for any demon that can be created through sacrificing a mortal unit. You do it by giving a mortal unit "Eager Vessel" (replace the mind slot with a demon slot), then sacrifice it to create a demon unit. The demon slot carries over to the newly created demon unit.

Another reason that the occultism spellbook is good with demonlogists is the ultimate for the occultism spellbook (A demon lord as a unit) that has 3 demon slots as a default (throw some of the special recipe greater demons in there and you have pretty much won).

[CuddilyWuddily]

Origineel geplaatst door Garatgh Deloi:

It works for any demon that can be created through sacrificing a mortal unit. You do it by giving a mortal unit "Eager Vessel" (replace the mind slot with a demon slot), then sacrifice it to create a demon unit. The demon slot carries over to the newly created demon unit.

Yeah but it doesn't work with any of the Pandemonium demons. And the Sacrificial Summon Demons suck, base unit wise anyways. Aether demon is trash. Tribe Eater falls off.

Pandemonium Demons are the cool looking fun ones. And if I plan on using them, I'm going Artificer because Artificers can make them strong enough to beat the game where as Demonology does absolutely nothing.

Origineel geplaatst door Garatgh Deloi:

Another reason that the occultism spellbook is good with demonlogists is the ultimate for the occultism spellbook (A demon lord as a unit) that has 3 demon slots as a default (throw some of the special recipe greater demons in there and you have pretty much won).

You piqued my interest. Mind telling me the combination you've been using to turn that demon lord into a super unit? Because I found that demon lord severely lackluster and I still think Glyphs woulda done a better job.

[Kaysoky]

Demonologist + Occultist has the super-combo of an Aether Beast (Sacrificial summoned) + max level Paradox demon. That'll oneshot up to 7 non-titans in a single move.

Besides that, merely using some double fused Pawn demons (+12 damage) is enough to make most demonologist units really strong. Heroes benefit even more, since you can fuse different sorts of demons into all your gear. Once I fused a Paradox into a Tome and gave it to my apprentice, letting him execute Titans.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Origineel geplaatst door CuddilyWuddily:

You piqued my interest. Mind telling me the combination you've been using to turn that demon lord into a super unit? Because I found that demon lord severely lackluster and I still think Glyphs woulda done a better job.

I don't have the game installed right now and it has been a while since i played my demonlogist, so i can't remember the specifics of the demons i used (to get him into a completely broken op state) of the top of my head.

But are you aware of the special greater demons you can get from combining lesser demons with specific cult affinities? Said special greater demons have some insane buffs on top of also inheriting the buffs from the lesser demons used to craft them.

While i have admittedly not played much as a artificer, i am under the impression that glyphs are way weaker overall but require less work to craft (and you don't have to level them up).

Here is the info on all the possession demon recipes i have found in game (admittedly from the DLC's release. Some stuff might have been nerfed, see the second link for the special ones).
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1581770/discussions/0/7434949789837854221/?ctp=2#c7434950195644816542
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1581770/discussions/0/7434949789837854221/?ctp=2#c7434950195644881882

Meaning that to get the best demon possession souls you not only need to craft lesser demons, level them up (some of them having extremely annoying level up conditions), then combine them. But you also need to create cults in cities everywhere and even in some cases buy demons with cult affinities you can't craft from semi random store locations.

On a semi related note; If you really want super units you can also add demon possessed weaponry on top of that :P (Heck you can add a extra arm with a mutation for another weapon slot, or a weapon slot when they normally have none).

[CuddilyWuddily]

Origineel geplaatst door Garatgh Deloi:

While i have admittedly not played much as a artificer, i am under the impression that glyphs are way weaker overall but require less work to craft (and you don't have to level them up).

If you put Slaver II Glyph on all 7 Shaper Golems giving them all Followers and fill the rest of their 4 slots with Leader III Glyphs each which gives them +3 damage to all of their attacks for each Follower in the stack, Shaper Golem gets +84 damage a hit.

So that's +252 damage to their full attack.

I saw the Demonologist stuff and nothing came close to +84 damage a hit hence why I'm disincentivized to give Demonologists a proper try right now.

I could be wrong because I haven't played Demonologists properly yet so I'm asking people around what their OP combo was so I can compare it to +84 damage and see if I want to give it a try or not.

For non-titans like the Pandemonium demons +42 damage is probably more accurate because generally normal T3 units only have 3 glyph slots after Niethalf's Blessing.

Anyways, Glyphs are the strongest equipment in the game imo by a significant margin.

[Kaysoky]

Origineel geplaatst door CuddilyWuddily:

yph on all 7 Shaper Golems giving them all Followers and fill the rest of their 4 slots with Leader III Glyphs each which gives them +3 damage to all of their attacks for each Follower in the stack, Shaper Golem gets +84 damage a hit.

There's such a huge jump in player power once you reach the late game, which makes these comparisons a bit meaningless. Both classes can demolish any enemy, with varying degrees of overkill.

That does make the scenarios a more useful comparison, since there is a time limit there (60 turns to get as powerful as possible, compared to 60-240 turns you might think about in the main campaign). As you might have experienced yourself (on a different discussion), getting even a single Shaper Golem is a huge challenge in the scenarios, let alone 7 of them.

[CuddilyWuddily]

Origineel geplaatst door Kaysoky:

There's such a huge jump in player power once you reach the late game, which makes these comparisons a bit meaningless. Both classes can demolish any enemy, with varying degrees of overkill.

That does make the scenarios a more useful comparison, since there is a time limit there (60 turns to get as powerful as possible, compared to 60-240 turns you might think about in the main campaign). As you might have experienced yourself (on a different discussion), getting even a single Shaper Golem is a huge challenge in the scenarios, let alone 7 of them.

Yeah in the scenarios I go Fire Golem not Shaper Golem. +30 or +45 damage a hit to each of the Fire Golems' 5 Inferno strikes is stupidly strong and is what got me through Cursed Army and is my current plan for Magic and Might for Artificers.

In Cursed Army I can get 2 Fire Golems up with 2x Leader III Glyphs each in a 6 man stack where everyone has Follower before turn 60. +30 damage per hit, that's like a +150 damage total from a single Inferno and I got 2 of em.

[Magnnus]

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about how strong Demonology is or is not. However, I would like to note, my suggestion is less about balance and more about providing varied and fun gameplay. If a player gets a cool Fantastical unit as a Demonologist, whether that be a Demon, a Shaper Golem, a Treant, etc., it feels bad to have no way to integrate it into your main strategy of possessing units.

[Kaysoky]

If you get a Demon (Fantastic) as a Demonologist, but don't have the Occultist spell page, you can still get some synergies. Demon units have their own healing ability (cheaper than Healing Potion and can be used multiple times per turn) and the Demonic Slaughter synergy. There's also battlefield effects like Warped Reality that give a debuff to all non-demons. (Not to mention the Demon Kin room extension.)

And finally, if you upgrade a Paradox demon into an Enigma, all demons in your stack can level up (much like Infused Memory but with no upkeep or XP penalty), which really boosts their usefulness.

[Archond]

252 dmg on one target, that stands next to you? Ofc, it is OP but sounds weak compared to this:

Origineel geplaatst door Archond:

I still think 75% HP left execution after the attack is a mistake. Even 25% would be OP.

Yes, some Demons are just facerolling. I just don't use them, because it is not fun. My most Dmg Deamon example:
+ 25 Elemental Dmg
+ 100% Elemental resist
+ 60% Dmg (-45% HP)
+ 3 Elemental Dmg
+ 2 Willpower
at 75% HP left execution after the attack in just one Demon wtf?
~ 130 Dmg Pyromants per Hit without other multipliers. That means everything below 540 HP is onehit with Inferno.

In conclustion, Demonologist will be OP at some point.

[Archond]

Origineel geplaatst door Magnnus:

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about how strong Demonology is or is not. However, I would like to note, my suggestion is less about balance and more about providing varied and fun gameplay. If a player gets a cool Fantastical unit as a Demonologist, whether that be a Demon, a Shaper Golem, a Treant, etc., it feels bad to have no way to integrate it into your main strategy of possessing units.

I would generally agree. However I always cancel Infused Memory after the unit is max level. If the Unit gets a Mind slot I would not cancel it.

There is a mod "Mind Slots for Fantastic Units" to enable mind slots for fantastic units.

[CuddilyWuddily]

Origineel geplaatst door Archond:

at 75% HP left execution after the attack in just one Demon wtf?

75% execution? Am I reading that right? Ok that is amazing. The -45% hp is probably not worth it because AI always gets the alpha strike off in the hardest fights in the game but yeah, 75% execution threshold sounds amazing. I'll definitely give that a whirl when i play Demonologist

But... yeah... building super Core Dwellers, Aether Demons, or Mortal units just doesn't do it for me so once again I agree with the OP, please give infused memory the ability to give Demons mind slots so Demonologists get to create super demons instead of super mortal units.

Class is called Demonologist not Mortalologist

[Magnnus]

> I would generally agree. However I always cancel Infused Memory after the unit is max level. If the Unit gets a Mind slot I would not cancel it.

You say "however", but your statement seems to _support_ my idea. From the game-designers perspective, giving the player a reason to keep paying the upkeep-cost is _good_.

> There is a mod "Mind Slots for Fantastic Units" to enable mind slots for fantastic units.

I assume the developers avoided giving Mind Slots to Fantastic units for balance reasons. My idea is to provide Mind Slots with a tradeoff. It makes Mind Slots for Fantastic units obtainable, but special. I'm thinking about this from the perspective of a game-designer.

[Wuorg]

Origineel geplaatst door Magnnus:

> There is a mod "Mind Slots for Fantastic Units" to enable mind slots for fantastic units.

I assume the developers avoided giving Mind Slots to Fantastic units for balance reasons. My idea is to provide Mind Slots with a tradeoff. It makes Mind Slots for Fantastic units obtainable, but special. I'm thinking about this from the perspective of a game-designer.

If we're talking game design, I'd argue it should be a different spell entirely. Perhaps for Dreamweaving, but one whose sole purpose is to give a mind slot to fantastics.

Giving mind slots to Demons specifically I'd prefer to see implemented as a room or room extension for Demonology. It feels like the kind of thing that should be associated with that crafting archetype, moreso than Occultism, imo.