The "Drone Host" conondrum.

[Temp3st]

The math around drone hosts is still being understood so i did some real in game testing vs various TEC counters and here's what i found:

TEST SETUP;
All tests were done against 40 drone hosts (800 Supply)
Drone hosts were micro'd
TEC fleets had zero micro.
TEC always started on opposite end of well.
Drones always were the jump aggressor.
No buffs or weapon ups.
TEC Sova always was at Level 1.
TEC Sova always was using default ratio.

Tests 1 & 2 Garda at 400 and 800 supply respectively, Drones had default ratio of fighter to bombers of 2 fighter 1 bomber. Gardas protecting a Kol.

Test 1 result: Kol dies in 25 seconds, and when all gardas are dead only a 11 bomber and 5 fighter loss.

Test 2: Same result Gardas manage to kill 50 bomber and 95 fighter.

Test 3 Setup: 16 Sova with no ups no micro and drone host player trying to evade missile bats, still default ratio on drone hosts.
Result: 3 Sovas dead 1 crippled, all drone hosts dead.

Test 4 setup: 16 Fresh Sovas vs Drone hosts with ratio switched to 1 fighter 2 bomber, using a "Cripple strat" were you put the Sova to red bar then move on to disable the next one. Sova's do not have strikecraft and do not do any DPS just like any other cap when in Red bar.
Result: All Sova dead with 26 hosts remaining.

Test 5 Same ratio but focus firing
Result: Sova's dead with 25 hosts left.

Test 6: All Sova equipped with Flak, Drone hosts using more ideal configuration of 2 bomber 1 fighter from here on out.
Result: All drone dead, 1 Sova dead.

Test 7: All Sovas equipped hangers
Result: 4 Sova dead, all drone hosts dead.


Conclusions from first round of testing:
-Garda is a anti missile unit only, they simply lack the PD DPS to reasonably kill bombers.
(Garda will need a buff, even at 2.0 DPS they probably will not fare much better)

-Sova is insanely more effective against enemy strike craft based fleets.

-Supply wise Sova is king vs strike craft because of levels, and upgrades.

-Flak Sova is the counter to enemy strike craft, Flak is cheap and does not cost exotics.

-Hanger is really strong as well but expensive.

-It's super hard to stop the first cap from dying to focus fire you have to pre cast a bunch of flak bursts to save it.

-Default ratio on carriers suck, bomber heavy is much more effective.

-Cripple juggling is marginally more effective.

-Sova had such a commanding victory using flak burst, 2nd round of testing will see if 10, 8, 6 or even 4 Sova can win vs 40 drone hosts using both hanger and flak. Sova is most likely the cost effective way to stop it.

-Drone hosts regenerate strike craft *Really* fast. This might need to be looked at.

Cost effectiveness is going to be the focus of round 2.
Stay tuned.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DAY 2 Testing:

Round 1: Bomber range vs flak
Result: Bomber range did not have a huge effect, 2 extra Sova dead vs 40 drones.
(3 total) 20% damage played a bigger role than range i feel.

Test 2: Cutting Sova numbers in half and use hanger + flak
Result: Sovas dead 23 Drones left, Sova had strikecraft at about 15% left until the deathsprial happened.

Sova ran out of HP before they could kill them all. Extremely close fight. Combined credit cost of the Drones is about 78k credits (3 creds for 1 metal / crystal) Sova just over 112k credits. Incredibly pop efficient.

Next set of tests will involve the Halcyon. Sovas had a Major strikecraft numbers advantage in every test and was over 70% strikecraft alive until deathspiral.

Test 3: 16 naked Halcyon using tele push vs 16 naked lvl 1 Sovas. Halc ratio 1/2.
Result: As expected Halcyon strikecraft were a non factor. Halcyons had nearly zero strikecraft for majority of the fight. Came down to gun fight. As expected Sova PD is insane.

Test 4: Same test but Sovas equipped with hanger and Halcyon with Psi plating (Same tier)
Result: 5 Halcyon destoryed and 1 cripple, all Sova dead. Same reason Strikecraft from the Halcyon were a non factor.

Test 5: All ships lvl 3, Full combat T4 ups and Ship mods.
Sova used Hanger, Flak, Shield gen, Combat repair. Skills 2-1
Halcyon Built for Psipower, all of them equipped with Harmony circuit. In combat Psipower close to 200. 1-1-1 on all levels. All of them equipped with Sync shield.
Result: All Sova dead 1 Halc dead, Beam weapons again deciding factor. Halcyon under 10% strikecraft for 90% of the fight. Telepush was just constantly on. More of a huge annoyance than a strikecraft wiper. Never ran out of AM for the Halcyons.

Test 6: Sovas micro targeting on bombers to focus fire effectively vs the shield burst.
Result: 6 Halcyon dead, All Sova dead. Strikecraft for Halcyon again a non factor. Shield burst adds just too much effective HP to chew through in time.


Takeaways from Day 2:

-Sova is the anti strikecraft god.
-Sova cannot fight by itself vs Halcyon, the beam weapons have 400 pen.
-Shield burst again showing just how insane it is. 3000+ shields restored on average.
-Flak burst showing how insane it is.
-Energy accelerator on Halcyon not a troll pick. Will have to investigate more.
-Combat repair system has terrible AI and most of the time has to be manually clicked.
-Combat repair system does not work when in red bar but shield burst does.
-All fights between Halcyon and Sova turned into melees were Sova bombers could not kill the Halcyons fast enough. Halcyon direct fire beams were the reason they won, not tele push or their strikecraft.

[Temp3st]

Forgot to add one very small but interesting thing:
Garda AI seems to target fighters first, were Sova AI targets bombers with it's PD priority.

[Sabaithal]

I'd say Garda's should NOT have their effectiveness changed. The reason being, sovas aside, the counter to strike craft is supposed to be other strike craft.

If one increases the effectiveness of anti-fighter frigates above the ability of fighters then why would anyone bother building strike craft at all, especially when frigates are infinitely easier to coordinate?

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Forgot to add one very small but interesting thing:
Garda AI seems to target fighters first, were Sova AI targets bombers with it's PD priority.

The Garda's primary role is anti-missile and assisted chip damage vs strikecraft. You can target Bombers specifically and ignore the fighter cover to help improve their performance, but it requires some micro(or they might try to chase them around).
If you want to make a dent in enemy strikecraft, you bring Sovas and Dunovs(their base PD is 4 DPS per gun), loaded up with Reserve Squadron Hangar, Flak Burst and Rapid Autoloader modules.
You can also upgrade the defenses of the Garda. More Armour Strength and a stronger hull helps. A 250 pts shield(350 when fully upgraded) can also take some of the heat. And of course, more damage and better range of the PD weaponry itself. Even the upgrade to Mk2 and more speed from Culture can make them more impactful on a battle.

It is dangerous to change the power of PD, because once you have claimed Air Superiority, the PD guns start to deal constant damage to enemy ships, and if the DPS is too good, they not only counter strikecraft much better, but adds more damage to the fight in general.
In addition, all of these Sovas are level 1. With a couple of levels, they will get tougher and bring more fighters. Their Missile Battery will deal more damage and have better rate of fire(and can be deployed more often as well).

Vasari PD has a higher DPS per gun(Cruisers and Capitals especially), so their alpha-strike styled PD is better vs strikecraft(higher chance of taking it out in a single volley), but a bit worse against missiles(lower rate of fire than TEC PD from the looks of it, which means slower retargeting). They also have fewer PD per capital ship, but instead have more vessels that bring their own PD(including a couple of Cruisers).

Advent appears to have the weakest PD. It is overall better than the Garda Frigate, and they have a decent amount of them, but the DPS per gun is still relatively low, even on capital ships. So they rely a lot on their Halcyons for Air Superiority and anti-missile performance.


Another thing that people might forget. Every Fighter and Bomber shot down, provides exp. They can be a direct liability, if the opponent has a good counter to them, as not only will a large part of your damage capabilities be countered, but you will feed a bunch of exp in the process.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

You should try with the range upgrade for drone host bombers, since it lets them attack outside of flak burst range.

[Temp3st]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

The Garda's primary role is anti-missile and assisted chip damage vs strikecraft. You can target Bombers specifically and ignore the fighter cover to help improve their performance, but it requires some micro(or they might try to chase them around).
If you want to make a dent in enemy strikecraft, you bring Sovas and Dunovs(their base PD is 4 DPS per gun), loaded up with Reserve Squadron Hangar, Flak Burst and Rapid Autoloader modules.
You can also upgrade the defenses of the Garda. More Armour Strength and a stronger hull helps. A 250 pts shield(350 when fully upgraded) can also take some of the heat. And of course, more damage and better range of the PD weaponry itself. Even the upgrade to Mk2 and more speed from Culture can make them more impactful on a battle.

It is dangerous to change the power of PD, because once you have claimed Air Superiority, the PD guns start to deal constant damage to enemy ships, and if the DPS is too good, they not only counter strikecraft much better, but adds more damage to the fight in general.

Garda's role has been anti strikecraft support. They do next to zero damage against anything armored. Even if bombers were shift clicked with them they would loose by a absolute massive margin. Garda has zero penetration on it's PD so shooting caps or other frontline ships will do very little damage and the Garda will be trashed by said other close assault ships.

Garda does not need to be able to kill every single strikecraft and then the carriers and all other frontline ships, but it absolutely needs to work better than 5-10% complement dead in a large fight with all of them dead. 800 supply vs 800 supply only saw about 4% of the strikecraft dead, literally would of been better off with things like cobalts or harckas chasing attacking the hosts themselves for the supply and cost. Would of ended up with more squadrons dead. They absolutely need to be able to kill strikecraft well, this goes for any PD ship.

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

You should try with the range upgrade for drone host bombers, since it lets them attack outside of flak burst range.

I will try this and see how it changes the fight, upgrades are on the next set of testing.

[Vandom]

Is the Sova getting more kills with its PD or fighters? The answer might change depending on flak due to PD turrets shifting targets and spreading damage.

[Temp3st]

Originally posted by Vandom:

Is the Sova getting more kills with its PD or fighters? The answer might change depending on flak due to PD turrets shifting targets and spreading damage.

Most of the Sova strikecraft kills was with its own PD, Hanger or Flak changed this. Without any ups the Sova's strikecraft were pretty low until more of them got thinned out. One of the things about carriers and Drone hosts is just how fast they regenerate strikecraft.

[Vandom]

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Without any ups the Sova's strikecraft were pretty low until more of them got thinned out.

Sorry can you clarify. Was the strikecraft kills low, or their numbers low because Aeria fighters were killing them?

[Sugam]

ya, came to the conclusion that Garda's are 100% useless. If I am TEC, I just focus on 3+ Sov's with timing flak, despite its recent area effect nurf. I love the game but they srs need to rework some of these units. Make it an upgrade in the lest or something for Garda's. In impossible AI, if I see a 1200 supply fleet of garda's roll up I just laugh.

[Temp3st]

Originally posted by Vandom:

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Without any ups the Sova's strikecraft were pretty low until more of them got thinned out.

Sorry can you clarify. Was the strikecraft kills low, or their numbers low because Aeria fighters were killing them?

Yes sorry, The drone hosts heavily out number the amount of strikecraft that the Sovas had at a 1/1 ratio. Drones had close to double the fighter count even when running a more ideal 1 fighter 2 bomber setup on them. If the Sovas were even level 3 it would heavily favor the Sovas regardless of upgrades.

Shooting down a good number of the Strikecraft was needed before the Sovas strikecraft started to assist in the death spiral of the Drones. With the hanger equipped the Sovas just simply spammed out enough strikecraft to win over the long term, and flak layering just erased all of them.

[Vandom]

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Originally posted by Vandom:

Sorry can you clarify. Was the strikecraft kills low, or their numbers low because Aeria fighters were killing them?

Yes sorry, The drone hosts heavily out number the amount of strikecraft that the Sovas had at a 1/1 ratio. Drones had close to double the fighter count even when running a more ideal 1 fighter 2 bomber setup on them. If the Sovas were even level 3 it would heavily favor the Sovas regardless of upgrades.

Shooting down a good number of the Strikecraft was needed before the Sovas strikecraft started to assist in the death spiral of the Drones. With the hanger equipped the Sovas just simply spammed out enough strikecraft to win over the long term, and flak layering just erased all of them.

Thank you, that really helps a lot in understanding the engagement. Didn't think that Advent fighters would be so impactful even with a bomber heavy ratio.

Do you think pure fighter might be the best ratio in fighting Advent?

[Temp3st]

Originally posted by Vandom:

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Yes sorry, The drone hosts heavily out number the amount of strikecraft that the Sovas had at a 1/1 ratio. Drones had close to double the fighter count even when running a more ideal 1 fighter 2 bomber setup on them. If the Sovas were even level 3 it would heavily favor the Sovas regardless of upgrades.

Shooting down a good number of the Strikecraft was needed before the Sovas strikecraft started to assist in the death spiral of the Drones. With the hanger equipped the Sovas just simply spammed out enough strikecraft to win over the long term, and flak layering just erased all of them.

Thank you, that really helps a lot in understanding the engagement. Didn't think that Advent fighters would be so impactful even with a bomber heavy ratio.

Do you think pure fighter might be the best ratio in fighting Advent?

Running pure fighter will win vs pure carrier spam but there is much more when considering a whole fleet than just strikecraft. Running 1/3 to 1/4 fighter to bomber ratio has netted the best results i feel at least for me. However if you see a enemy with close to 1k supply in strikecraft yeah i would probably switch over to all fighter even if not ideal. The testing was done with 1/1 as to get a more organic outcome instead of just metagaming it.

Vision is very OP in this game and is something that Advent get quite an advantage in in sizing up a enemy capabilities.

[Vandom]

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Originally posted by Vandom:

Thank you, that really helps a lot in understanding the engagement. Didn't think that Advent fighters would be so impactful even with a bomber heavy ratio.

Do you think pure fighter might be the best ratio in fighting Advent?

Running pure fighter will win vs pure carrier spam but there is much more when considering a whole fleet than just strikecraft. Running 1/3 to 1/4 fighter to bomber ratio has netted the best results i feel at least for me. However if you see a enemy with close to 1k supply in strikecraft yeah i would probably switch over to all fighter even if not ideal. The testing was done with 1/1 as to get a more organic outcome instead of just metagaming it.

Vision is very OP in this game and is something that Advent get quite an advantage in in sizing up a enemy capabilities.

I agree that bomber heavy gives better results generally, but so often that just turns into a pure carrier fleet. A boring meta itself.

I was actually thinking about the rest of the fleet when considering pure fighter, as it would allow carriers to more effectively do their job with less supply, allowing more supply for other ships to fill the dps role.

Thanks again for doing these tests and sharing your insights. If you need help to do them, someone to just spam out or micro Aeria, I'll be around a decent chunk of the day.

[Temp3st]

Originally posted by Vandom:

Originally posted by Temp3st:

Running pure fighter will win vs pure carrier spam but there is much more when considering a whole fleet than just strikecraft. Running 1/3 to 1/4 fighter to bomber ratio has netted the best results i feel at least for me. However if you see a enemy with close to 1k supply in strikecraft yeah i would probably switch over to all fighter even if not ideal. The testing was done with 1/1 as to get a more organic outcome instead of just metagaming it.

Vision is very OP in this game and is something that Advent get quite an advantage in in sizing up a enemy capabilities.

I agree that bomber heavy gives better results generally, but so often that just turns into a pure carrier fleet. A boring meta itself.

I was actually thinking about the rest of the fleet when considering pure fighter, as it would allow carriers to more effectively do their job with less supply, allowing more supply for other ships to fill the dps role.

Thanks again for doing these tests and sharing your insights. If you need help to do them, someone to just spam out or micro Aeria, I'll be around a decent chunk of the day.

Due to the complete lack of ability on Gardas fighter spam is the way to go, at least for now. Flak upgrade 5 damage / s to everything in its circle so that is pretty much mass bomber wipe if two are being cast at the same time

[mr.bouh]

This is very interesting. It seems, as far as TEC is concerned, that the flak item is the way to go. Is the sova really the best here though ? Wouldn't a marza or a kol do just as well ? You'd lack the PD, but you can get them from garda. One sova is about 5 garda in term of PD dps, but 5 garda is 20 supply. If the PD is there to regulate the resupply of bombers, you can take 20 or 30 with a handful of kol or marza armed with flak ? That would be 300 to 400 supply to counter 800 supply of drone hosts. That would make the drone strategy completely doomed. You can also use percherons with fighters instead of garda.

How do you make your tests ?