A thread about player agency

[PersonalC0ffee]

The BIGGEST complaint I see about the game is players feel they have no agency. That they are solely at the mercy of the RNG forever. This isn't true and while yes you can get game ended by the RNG; there are multiple ways for the player to control or manipulate not only the draft pool but also their rerolls and currencies.

Unfortunately, the game is VERY bad at telling you any of this. It just expects you to learn it on your own and this leads to a lot of player frustration.

So for those players, I'm going to VERY minorly spoil what agency I've personally found in my nearly now 100 hours. I will NOT list where, how, or what gives you this agency. I will only list the effects. It will be onto you, the player, to find them and utilize them.

You can;

pick the color of your room you'd most like to see
rotate rooms
remove rooms from the drawing pool for a time
add rooms to the draw pool for a time
manipulate or remove currency costs
change currencies
spawn certain effects or items
multiple ways to reroll your draw choices
reroll your upgrades
duplicate rooms
change the rarity of your rooms
various permanent upgrades

This is all the ones I've personally found so there are probably more, so don't consider this an exhaustive list.

Hopefully this helps some of you.

[Minneyar]

But the catch is, every single thing you said can be qualified with: "if you get a room or item that lets you do that."

All of the tools that let you manipulate the RNG are also at the mercy of the RNG. If they were things you permanently had access to after you unlocked them or figured out how to use them it'd be one thing, but they're not. Even after you know how they all work, sometimes the game will still give you nothing but junk and your run will end after rank 4 because it gives you nothing but dead ends or nothing but locked doors and not enough keys.

[jussr]

Originally posted by Minneyar:

But the catch is, every single thing you said can be qualified with: "if you get a room or item that lets you do that."

All of the tools that let you manipulate the RNG are also at the mercy of the RNG. If they were things you permanently had access to after you unlocked them or figured out how to use them it'd be one thing, but they're not. Even after you know how they all work, sometimes the game will still give you nothing but junk and your run will end after rank 4 because it gives you nothing but dead ends or nothing but locked doors and not enough keys.

Ehh... it depends, I think. For some of the things listed, sure, you need to draw the right room or item(s) to make it work (though there are ways to increase the odds of such). For others, you just need to set it up the first time and then at most, do the right things to make sure you don't lose it again. Once you've unlocked the making a room colour more likely options, you're not losing either of them unless you choose to (and if you have both at once and do the thing that makes you lose the one of them that's more easily lost, you can just use the other to really easily get it back the next day).

You can also ensure that one particular room of your choice will be the first one you put down in the day maybe... hmm, three-quarters of the time? Which is great for alleviating frustration: need a specific item to be available, choose the coat check. Want to buy lots of useful items right at the start and have a giant allowance, the showroom. Study if you need easy rerolls, pool if you're trying to power up the pump room, etc etc.

There are many things that you cannot absolutely guarantee, no, but you can stack the odds to be very highly in your favour!

[yamitami]

Originally posted by Minneyar:

But the catch is, every single thing you said can be qualified with: "if you get a room or item that lets you do that."

All of the tools that let you manipulate the RNG are also at the mercy of the RNG. If they were things you permanently had access to after you unlocked them or figured out how to use them it'd be one thing, but they're not. Even after you know how they all work, sometimes the game will still give you nothing but junk and your run will end after rank 4 because it gives you nothing but dead ends or nothing but locked doors and not enough keys.

but then you can just try again tomorrow. with the exception of the optional speedrunner trophies, nothing in this game requires you to do a thing the same day. you can try again to get all the classrooms. you can try again to get power to a given room. and so on and so forth

it is an RNG game so even once you do get control, yeah, there's still RNG. and that's for a reason in gameplay too, if you could solidly pick your rooms then you'd miss puzzle pieces that you didn't have, you might lock out the very rare rooms like the gallery before even getting it once. you might eliminate the red rooms before realizing there's something more to some of them

if you go into it wanting absolute control then yeah, you will be disappointed because the game is at its core RNG for good reason. if you need control to have a good time then this may not be the best game for you

[.]

not gonna read your 1000th post complaining about people who have legitimate issues with the game design

[Haxton]

Originally posted by yamitami:

but then you can just try again tomorrow. with the exception of the optional speedrunner trophies, nothing in this game requires you to do a thing the same day. you can try again to get all the classrooms. you can try again to get power to a given room. and so on and so forth

1. "Just try again until the stars align" is not a valid criticism against "This game is too random"

Originally posted by yamitami:

it is an RNG game so even once you do get control, yeah, there's still RNG. and that's for a reason in gameplay too, if you could solidly pick your rooms then you'd miss puzzle pieces that you didn't have, you might lock out the very rare rooms like the gallery before even getting it once. you might eliminate the red rooms before realizing there's something more to some of them

2. You make a great point about not locking rooms behind RNG gives players incentive to wander and explore (After all, forced exploration is not truly an exploration!) As is, you want to draw rooms that gives resource and avoid rooms that penalize you via some way.

Originally posted by yamitami:

if you go into it wanting absolute control then yeah, you will be disappointed because the game is at its core RNG for good reason. if you need control to have a good time then this may not be the best game for you

3. This game was advertised as a predominantly puzzle game. Puzzle games usually gives the player complete control - this game has solidly demonstrated why.

[Silyon]

Originally posted by PersonalC0ffee:

Unfortunately, the game is VERY bad at telling you any of this. It just expects you to learn it on your own and this leads to a lot of player frustration.

I'm looking at the Drafting Strategy books in particular. They literally give you the rundown on how several rooms work, how you can take proper advantage of them, and in general how to get the inherent RNG of the game to cooperate with whatever you're trying to do that day. They also have next to no impact on any of the numerous puzzles or mysteries in the game, they're strictly aids to gameplay.

Which makes it baffling that all five volumes are so hard to track down. Only one is in the Library, two more must be bought via a rare shop, another in a room that's not even in the base drafting pool, and the last tucked away in a moderately rare 2-gem room you're only likely to draft relatively late in the day. You shouldn't be in a position of having to apply the knowlege in the books to get to the books, that's backwards by any measure.

[yamitami]

Originally posted by .:

not gonna read your 1000th post complaining about people who have legitimate issues with the game design

why are you even here? it's truly wild to me to spend so much time on the message boards on a game you hate

[.]

same reason you are brother

[ChickenStrip]

Originally posted by yamitami:

Originally posted by .:

not gonna read your 1000th post complaining about people who have legitimate issues with the game design

why are you even here? it's truly wild to me to spend so much time on the message boards on a game you hate

This place is a ridiculous echo chamber. Making a dozen or so posts on a game over the course of a month or more can take less than the time it takes to do one failed run. There is no fair criticism, gotta go personal against anybody that doesn't see the sanctity and perfection of the gameplay systems and puzzle designs.

I can't think of any game that devolved into such a ridiculous echo chamber, not even the launch version of Dark Souls 1. Absolute insanity.

I'm still here because I like a bunch of the meta puzzles, but I'm not experiencing it directly because post-TotBP, I just do not have it in me contend with all of the Roguelike elements that get in the way of the very interesting puzzle design. To people that are starting off and struggling, there's a TON of valid advice to give them about how to manage odds. But as the game stretches in the 100+ days, the Roguelike elements just become more and more of an unfun bear. My favorite moments with the game were the 5-10 hours I spent with the game closed, sifting through 1000+ screenshots and 30+ pages of notes to piece together a bunch . But seriously ♥♥♥♥ having to outright grind for clues in a puzzle game.

[adrien_perleflamme]

Originally posted by Minneyar:

But the catch is, every single thing you said can be qualified with: "if you get a room or item that lets you do that."

All of the tools that let you manipulate the RNG are also at the mercy of the RNG. If they were things you permanently had access to after you unlocked them or figured out how to use them it'd be one thing, but they're not. Even after you know how they all work, sometimes the game will still give you nothing but junk and your run will end after rank 4 because it gives you nothing but dead ends or nothing but locked doors and not enough keys.

So, foundation is one thing, then. Permanent, non-RNG dependent.

As well as changing rarity of rooms, which is extremely strong. Sure getting the mechanism to happen is RNG-dependent, just like getting the foundation, but once you've done it, it is permanent and independent from RNG. With this, you can on your own decide which dead ends you want to see often and which one you want to be so rare you generally don't see them drafted within a run.

As well as choosing your preferred color for the day, which also leads to you being able to very specifically pick any non-blue outdoor room. Notably hovel, trading post and root cellar aren't RNG dependent anymore using such tricks, which means you can also RNG-independently change the way you spend your currencies too or get access to a lot of different items through bartering. And given there are only 8 indoor rooms of each starting color, it also means most indoor rooms of most colors are trivially easy to draft, depending on how many additions of such color you've accepted into your pool, which also is something you decide on your own.

[yamitami]

the issue is that there is no objective fun, which is usually what's being argued.

i can tear this game a new one about accessibility issues. i certainly agree that the drafting magazines need to be more available, and so on. those are actual gameplay issues

but when you're arguing that a given core concept is inherently and objectively bad and not fun when there's a slew of people who not only don't mind that concept but actively enjoy it, then you are wrong. from your subjective POV yes, it is unfun because you don't vibe with it. but that doesn't make it an objective truth that RNG or whatever is inherently bad

it's like the posts on r/ididnthaveeggs, where people rate online recipes 1 star because a recipe for an egg tart has eggs in it

when it's something specific like the drafting magazines, yeah, that is a good discussion to have. when it's people saying that the RNG game is objectively bad because it has RNG in it (because they expected a puzzle game to not have that even though it's advertised specifically as a roguelite) then yeah, you are going to hear the same thing over and over because it's a flawed argument being dressed up as objective truth

[adrien_perleflamme]

Originally posted by yamitami:

the issue is that there is no objective fun, which is usually what's being argued.

i can tear this game a new one about accessibility issues. i certainly agree that the drafting magazines need to be more available, and so on. those are actual gameplay issues

but when you're arguing that a given core concept is inherently and objectively bad and not fun when there's a slew of people who not only don't mind that concept but actively enjoy it, then you are wrong. from your subjective POV yes, it is unfun because you don't vibe with it. but that doesn't make it an objective truth that RNG or whatever is inherently bad

it's like the posts on r/ididnthaveeggs, where people rate online recipes 1 star because a recipe for an egg tart has eggs in it

when it's something specific like the drafting magazines, yeah, that is a good discussion to have. when it's people saying that the RNG game is objectively bad because it has RNG in it (because they expected a puzzle game to not have that even though it's advertised specifically as a roguelite) then yeah, you are going to hear the same thing over and over because it's a flawed argument being dressed up as objective truth

Well, it could be a valid argument, with only pure RNG. After all, roguelites are supposed to provide bonuses lasting over runs, notably to somehow control the RNG and prevent the game from becoming some convoluted, mindless head or tail game.

The thing is, there are lots of mechanisms to control the RNG in this game and to improve runs over time, even way more than many other roguelite games. So, yeah, it's clearly not a valid argument at all for this game, just an expression of tastes and preferences disguised as an argument.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by Haxton:

3. This game was advertised as a predominantly puzzle game. Puzzle games usually gives the player complete control - this game has solidly demonstrated why.

No it was not. Mistaken or ignorant people may have aimed it that way but that is NOT how it was marketed. Any reading or watching of the material and interviews with the developer teams absolutely shows that the game is a puzzle roguelite and was marketed as such.

Literally has the tag line;

"The rooms of today may not be the rooms of tomorrow."

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by ChickenStrip:

Originally posted by yamitami:

why are you even here? it's truly wild to me to spend so much time on the message boards on a game you hate

This place is a ridiculous echo chamber. Making a dozen or so posts on a game over the course of a month or more can take less than the time it takes to do one failed run. There is no fair criticism, gotta go personal against anybody that doesn't see the sanctity and perfection of the gameplay systems and puzzle designs.

I can't think of any game that devolved into such a ridiculous echo chamber, not even the launch version of Dark Souls 1. Absolute insanity.

I'm still here because I like a bunch of the meta puzzles, but I'm not experiencing it directly because post-Blue Throne, I just do not have it in me contend with all of the Roguelike elements that get in the way of the very interesting puzzle design. To people that are starting off and struggling, there's a TON of valid advice to give them about how to manage odds. But as the game stretches in the 100+ days, the Roguelike elements just become more and more of an unfun bear. My favorite moments with the game were the 5-10 hours I spent with the game closed, sifting through 1000+ screenshots and 30+ pages of notes to piece together a bunch . But seriously ♥♥♥♥ having to outright grind for clues in a puzzle game.

I don't know what this blue throne is you keep going on about. Don't just spout spoilers of late game elements off on the discussion boards, please.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by yamitami:

the issue is that there is no objective fun, which is usually what's being argued.

i can tear this game a new one about accessibility issues. i certainly agree that the drafting magazines need to be more available, and so on. those are actual gameplay issues

but when you're arguing that a given core concept is inherently and objectively bad and not fun when there's a slew of people who not only don't mind that concept but actively enjoy it, then you are wrong. from your subjective POV yes, it is unfun because you don't vibe with it. but that doesn't make it an objective truth that RNG or whatever is inherently bad

it's like the posts on r/ididnthaveeggs, where people rate online recipes 1 star because a recipe for an egg tart has eggs in it

when it's something specific like the drafting magazines, yeah, that is a good discussion to have. when it's people saying that the RNG game is objectively bad because it has RNG in it (because they expected a puzzle game to not have that even though it's advertised specifically as a roguelite) then yeah, you are going to hear the same thing over and over because it's a flawed argument being dressed up as objective truth

Yes exactly.

They are objectively incorrect.