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Dupue Dec 19, 2021 @ 6:00am
This game isnt actually a simulation. It cheats
In big matches the game will make you lose no matter what. Doesn't matter if your player ability is much higher than your opponent. If you are playing against Liverpool in a big match, its a guaranteed loss. I was suspicious after losing to them over and over so I started messing with the editor. I dropped their player ability to 1 for all their starters and guess what, still lost 4-0. So yup, this game isn't a true simulation and I'm quite let down after many hours of playing.
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Originally posted by Neil Brock:
The game isn't scripted, we've given clear explanations in relation to this in a number of threads. Will do so again here for the benefit of doubt for those of you who have missed it previously:

Remember with the match engine it's a representation of football. It isn't 100% perfect. Each chance that happens is calculated based on all the many many factors which happen within the FM gameworld and match situation at that time. There is no difference between what can happen for the player or the AI - if there's such a thing as 'superkeepers' (which for the record we've seen nothing in the code to suggest this) then the AI would encounter it just as often as the player - nothing is scripted it just plays out given the various information which feeds into the match.

The player will always have an advantage over the AI because they have more freedom to think and experiment. We tend to find players use much more attacking and aggressive tactics as a whole, which can cause them to create more chances overall, but often leave themselves exposed at the back which means the AI get much easier chances on the counter attack. This can cause imbalanced match stats where a player has had lots of shots (not always from good positions) and not converted, where the AI has very few shots, but those they do have are from extremely good positions which are converted.

This is partly why our moderators use tactical reasoning as a starting point for issues raised on our official forums.

Everything influences the match, to the extent if I tried to list everything here it'd take an extremely long time.

Aside from the many external factors which can influence (weather, player morale, importance of match, referee, where the fixture takes place, whether the away team has had to travel a significant distance for the fixture etc) every single attribute (both hidden and visible) for every single player has it taken into account, but certain elements will change every time a match is 'replayed'. Absolutely there is a random element in game much like there is real life, whereby luck and chance will be involved.

For instance, your best player makes a costly mistake in the first minute of match one - this affects him with an instant drop in confidence and he has a poor game, struggling to find his form. In match two, he makes a key assist, gains confidence and plays exceptionally well.

The role of the manager is to use all the elements they have at their disposal (player recruitment, tactics, form management, team talks etc) to make the best choices possible for each and every fixture. But even in doing so, even if you get everything absolutely perfect, in some instances you will still lose or draw a match you would expect to win. That is football in real life. That is also how it works in FM. The game does not 'decide' you are suddenly going to lose because it's programmed that way. You only win or lose depending on the hundreds of factors which go into every match which is then calculated in the match engine based on every single decision that happens. For every pass, each player will use their attributes (such as vision and decisions) to calculate all the available options for said pass. Higher the vision, more options available. Once in that split-second they've decided what pass to play, more attributes are used (such as passing, composure and technique) for the player to attempt said pass. But even then other factors will determine whether the pass is successful - the other player's anticipation and positioning, whether the ball is played hard or soft and is affected by the wind, whether an opposing player has very high anticipation and decisions to intercept the ball.

A huge number of calculations are used just for one pass. Now multiply that across the entire game for every single thing that happens in the match, there are thousands if not millions. And bear in mind for every single calculation the match engine does not determine any difference between the AI and the user player - this is not a factor taken into account.

So when you ask what decides the result of the match or a weaker time scoring with a shot, it's pretty much everything. Except whether the teams are AI controlled or user controlled. As this is not something used in any calculation.

But all the above has to sit into the constraints of trying to produce an accurate representation of football. It's not an easy task and we've never claimed it is. But it's something we're extremely passionate about and work incredibly hard towards. Some people may feel the ME has become more restricted or predictable, but we disagree. The elements worked on under the hood are pretty extraordinary and whilst the payoff may not always be obvious to the casual observer, I can assure you the building blocks are in place to continue to make strides forward in making the game more realistic.

Saying all of that (and I'm aware we're in TL;DR territory here), there are always going to be anomalies and matches where you get 'FM'd' - largely this is down to the point I made above; the general inclination of user to play attacking, expansive football compared to the AI's generally more conservative approach. But there will be occasions where someone is just plain unlucky. If you're being 'unlucky' a lot, there has to be a responsibility on the manager that there is something clearly not right. Now you may feel aggrieved if you feel this is less a 'football' mistake and more a 'match engine' mistake, but within your FM gameworld they are the same. We aim one day for the two things to be absolutely interchangeable and already we feel we're well on our way there.
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Showing 1-15 of 49 comments
fc.cadoni Dec 19, 2021 @ 6:31am 
You have to setup the correct RCA, otherwise things will convert back to previous state.
#1
MS (Banned) Dec 19, 2021 @ 8:58am 
Originally posted by Dupue:
In big matches the game will make you lose no matter what. Doesn't matter if your player ability is much higher than your opponent. If you are playing against Liverpool in a big match, its a guaranteed loss. I was suspicious after losing to them over and over so I started messing with the editor. I dropped their player ability to 1 for all their starters and guess what, still lost 4-0. So yup, this game isn't a true simulation and I'm quite let down after many hours of playing.

Agreed.
#2
croidubh Dec 19, 2021 @ 12:17pm 
I play lots of big matches and win many of them. Even drew 2-2 with Man Utd in the Champions League (at that point they'd won three of the previous four CLs) with my Bray Wanderers side -- who are probably along the level of a League One English side. Be a bit strange if the game just targets you.
#3
Michael Sant  [developer] Dec 19, 2021 @ 2:30pm 
The game isn't scripted, surely over the years you have the seen the stories of players who have taken tiny club X to the CL and won it all. The challenge among some in the FM community who try and get San Marino to win the world cup.

It can be difficult at times, especially if you come up against opposition who are well suited to countering your team.

What benefits would you see there being for us at SI if the game is scripted against you?
#4
Liquid Todd / Slash Dec 19, 2021 @ 4:45pm 
Originally posted by Michael Sant:
The game isn't scripted, surely over the years you have the seen the stories of players who have taken tiny club X to the CL and won it all. The challenge among some in the FM community who try and get San Marino to win the world cup.

It can be difficult at times, especially if you come up against opposition who are well suited to countering your team.

What benefits would you see there being for us at SI if the game is scripted against you?

Could you look down your nose any further at him with that response? Some say Scripted but they mean Narative. If you want us to start throwing this word at you then we will.
#5
Dupue Dec 19, 2021 @ 7:09pm 
I wasnt trying to be condescending, I was simply trying to point out that for big matches against big clubs, the game goes into "hard" mode instead of actually just simulating who is the better squad/tactics. I have lost to Liverpool when their players have 1 ability, we should have blown them out 90 to 0. I would be like a bunch of middle-schoolers playing professionals. Maybe scripted isn't the correct word, but i still stand by my findings.
#6
croidubh Dec 19, 2021 @ 7:30pm 
Does setting ability to 1 change their attributes immediately or does it take a few days to affect them? Assuming your test was done with a save immediately pre match, then maybe they played as normal with attributes unaffected.
#7
Michael Sant  [developer] Dec 19, 2021 @ 9:12pm 
Originally posted by Liquid Todd a.ka. Slash:
Could you look down your nose any further at him with that response? Some say Scripted but they mean Narative. If you want us to start throwing this word at you then we will.

Whether you win or lose a game is entirely on your own shoulders in terms of selecting your team, choosing your tactics and the various training, interactions and other factors you have along the way.

It's not like we have some obscure term you must reference and then we'll say you're correct. There is no narrative, script or any other pre-determined outcome for the game.

When you identify that amazing regen player, that's on you. When you win promotion/the league with a weak squad you never expected to compete with, that's on you. We aren't helping you along with some narrative where your team will do X in season Y and you're just along for the ride. The last scene from RDR1 with John walking out of the barn an all time favourite moment of mine where you're set to lose in a game as part of the narrative/script but that isn't what FM is or is trying to do.

Again, what benefit is there to us forcing you or any player to lose a game?
#8
Dupue Dec 20, 2021 @ 5:38am 
Originally posted by Michael Sant:
Originally posted by Liquid Todd a.ka. Slash:

Again, what benefit is there to us forcing you or any player to lose a game?

No benefit, just added difficulty for narrative's sake.
#9
Olov Dec 20, 2021 @ 11:43am 
It's definitely scripted. It has been documented for several years both on here, Reddit and other forums.

It's so obvious after a few seasons.

They don't want the game to be too easy, as that would make people quit playing. I remember back in the day during the CM-games, when you bought certain players you were unstoppable. You were winning with double digit numbers.

That's why I think they implemented this "switch".

I quit a long time ago, but bought 2019 and 2021 to test if the scripting is still there. And it sure is.

A few weeks ago I played a long save on 2021. I had great players and came 2nd in the league when everyone thought I was gonna get dropped down to the second league.

The next season, all of the sudden all teams over perform against me. My players with 18-19 in passes and great mental capacity, can't even hit a ball right. Even if the friendly player is 5 meters from them they can't pass the ball correctly.

When in Champions league against a better team, my team completely broke down. It was so obvious, they made obvious mistakes just to give the opportunity to the other team. Forwards who completely destroyed the league last season, now misses open goals constantly.

The worst was during the champions league game, when my defenders had the ball, passing to each other. My goal keeper is way to the side, yet my defender who is 5-10 meters from the goalpost, passes "to the goalkeeper", as if he was standing in the middle of the goal. Making it an own goal. I recorded it, because it was so silly and obvious.

I've read a couple of reviews that had 1000+ hours in the game, only to leave a bad review saying "After a long save I realized it's scripted".

Which is sad, because this franchise used to be great. I loved the Championship manager-games. But knowing that you can't influence crucial parts of the game at all, completely destroys the game for me - and lots of other people.

I mean, what's the point in spending hours upon hours on tactics, atmosphere, transfers and scouts - if the game already have decided the outcome?
Last edited by Olov; Dec 20, 2021 @ 11:44am
#10
fc.cadoni Dec 20, 2021 @ 12:22pm 
Originally posted by Olov:
It's definitely scripted. It has been documented for several years both on here, Reddit and other forums.

It's so obvious after a few seasons.

They don't want the game to be too easy, as that would make people quit playing. I remember back in the day during the CM-games, when you bought certain players you were unstoppable. You were winning with double digit numbers.

That's why I think they implemented this "switch".

I quit a long time ago, but bought 2019 and 2021 to test if the scripting is still there. And it sure is.

A few weeks ago I played a long save on 2021. I had great players and came 2nd in the league when everyone thought I was gonna get dropped down to the second league.

The next season, all of the sudden all teams over perform against me. My players with 18-19 in passes and great mental capacity, can't even hit a ball right. Even if the friendly player is 5 meters from them they can't pass the ball correctly.

When in Champions league against a better team, my team completely broke down. It was so obvious, they made obvious mistakes just to give the opportunity to the other team. Forwards who completely destroyed the league last season, now misses open goals constantly.

The worst was during the champions league game, when my defenders had the ball, passing to each other. My goal keeper is way to the side, yet my defender who is 5-10 meters from the goalpost, passes "to the goalkeeper", as if he was standing in the middle of the goal. Making it an own goal. I recorded it, because it was so silly and obvious.

I've read a couple of reviews that had 1000+ hours in the game, only to leave a bad review saying "After a long save I realized it's scripted".

Which is sad, because this franchise used to be great. I loved the Championship manager-games. But knowing that you can't influence crucial parts of the game at all, completely destroys the game for me - and lots of other people.

I mean, what's the point in spending hours upon hours on tactics, atmosphere, transfers and scouts - if the game already have decided the outcome?

HAHAHAHAHAHA
#11
fc.cadoni Dec 20, 2021 @ 12:24pm 
Print Screen and make a poster. This is gonna be my gift SI for Xmas, entry level when someone pass the door for your offices.

Hands down! The best "review" - "comment" I ever read for 4 years now (the above one).

HAHAHAA
#12
Olov Dec 20, 2021 @ 5:43pm 
Originally posted by GeirOve:
Originally posted by Olov:
It's definitely scripted. It has been documented for several years both on here, Reddit and other forums.

It's so obvious after a few seasons.

They don't want the game to be too easy, as that would make people quit playing. I remember back in the day during the CM-games, when you bought certain players you were unstoppable. You were winning with double digit numbers.

That's why I think they implemented this "switch".

I quit a long time ago, but bought 2019 and 2021 to test if the scripting is still there. And it sure is.

A few weeks ago I played a long save on 2021. I had great players and came 2nd in the league when everyone thought I was gonna get dropped down to the second league.

The next season, all of the sudden all teams over perform against me. My players with 18-19 in passes and great mental capacity, can't even hit a ball right. Even if the friendly player is 5 meters from them they can't pass the ball correctly.

When in Champions league against a better team, my team completely broke down. It was so obvious, they made obvious mistakes just to give the opportunity to the other team. Forwards who completely destroyed the league last season, now misses open goals constantly.

The worst was during the champions league game, when my defenders had the ball, passing to each other. My goal keeper is way to the side, yet my defender who is 5-10 meters from the goalpost, passes "to the goalkeeper", as if he was standing in the middle of the goal. Making it an own goal. I recorded it, because it was so silly and obvious.

I've read a couple of reviews that had 1000+ hours in the game, only to leave a bad review saying "After a long save I realized it's scripted".

Which is sad, because this franchise used to be great. I loved the Championship manager-games. But knowing that you can't influence crucial parts of the game at all, completely destroys the game for me - and lots of other people.

I mean, what's the point in spending hours upon hours on tactics, atmosphere, transfers and scouts - if the game already have decided the outcome?

Do you remember the CM05 glitch? Where you could see the end time score and who scored when you hit the overwiev button straight after the kick off button :D It wasnt real time simulation back then
Haha nah, I didn't know about that.

I don't mind if it's not real-time simulation though. As long as the calculations of the outcome are fair and according to data (tactics, players, atmosphere etc.) Then I don't care if the results are calculated before-hand or while watching the dots running around on the screen.

Championship manager 2 though, ouf, those were the days!
#13
Kapika96 Dec 20, 2021 @ 8:53pm 
Git gud!
#14
fc.cadoni Dec 21, 2021 @ 2:18am 
Originally posted by GeirOve:
Originally posted by fc.cadoni:
Print Screen and make a poster. This is gonna be my gift SI for Xmas, entry level when someone pass the door for your offices.

Hands down! The best "review" - "comment" I ever read for 4 years now (the above one).

HAHAHAA

I have an even better for you, years back the reviews used to be mixed at the best, in the top range of 50 or bottom 60 at the most. Suddenly the reviews went on to overwhelmingly positive. Take a print and make a door poster of all the GG and double reviews you can find, but that wouldnt fit your narrative probably

HAHAHAHAHA
#15
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Date Posted: Dec 19, 2021 @ 6:00am
Posts: 49

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