Avoid a steamrolling empire taking the fun out of the game?

[shiosai]

Could it be that the game got harder with the updates given the AI is smarter? I usually play "only" on hard and lately it seems kinda hard and unsatisfying.

Even when I have a perfect start, there is usually the "one" empire (probably Dhayut or these new Insects) that kinda steamrolled everything else and wins right away when I just get tech level 4 or so.

It takes the fun out because 1. its game over already 2. most other empires are dwarfed or conquered. Probably Im just unlucky but it happened too often lately.

I usually start everything prewarp and try to reduce research to slow and minimize colonization range

EDIT: The game getting harder is not an issue as I could always reduce difficulty - but an empire steamrolling everything else is not fun and might probably happen on lower difficulties too.

[Nightskies]

It is a sort of balancing act that is left in your (the player's) hands. The consideration pays off: for example, many distant empires with high hostility toward each other will likely see one or two of them eat the others, becoming the giants in the galaxy. Similarly, few distant empires will have plenty of room to expand unchecked, which the Teekan and Gizureans can do best. Zenox has a harder time expanding.

Think about likely alliances and select the empires at the start instead of using the auto generator.

Things are somewhat fudged to accommodate events, so it might be best to disable all events (which turns off the Swarm and big pirates).

[Qoojo]

To be clear, the issue you have is that one AI crushes the other AIs, not that it is game-over before you can get started?

[shiosai]

Originally posted by Qoojo:

To be clear, the issue you have is that one AI crushes the other AIs, not that it is game-over before you can get started?

Kinda both - the one AI gets so strong so fast that they trigger victory conditions when i perhaps just got double digits systems. Its not alwys the same and honestly I play this game already for some hundred hours but lately this situation seems to happen much more often.

Originally posted by Nightskies:

It is a sort of balancing act that is left in your (the player's) hands. The consideration pays off: for example, many distant empires with high hostility toward each other will likely see one or two of them eat the others, becoming the giants in the galaxy. Similarly, few distant empires will have plenty of room to expand unchecked, which the Teekan and Gizureans can do best. Zenox has a harder time expanding.

Think about likely alliances and select the empires at the start instead of using the auto generator.

Things are somewhat fudged to accommodate events, so it might be best to disable all events (which turns off the Swarm and big pirates).

I dont feel I had to do so much consideration with earlier releases/updates to be honest. But yeah probably its best to eg just deactivate Gizureans for now.

Edit: One more thing I do lately is just opening the editor and take away the money of the steamrolling empire as I dont have time to always start over again - especially how slow starts (still) are.

[Qoojo]

Originally posted by shiosai:

Originally posted by Qoojo:

To be clear, the issue you have is that one AI crushes the other AIs, not that it is game-over before you can get started?

Kinda both - the one AI gets so strong so fast that they trigger victory conditions when i perhaps just got double digits systems. Its not alwys the same and honestly I play this game already for some hundred hours but lately this situation seems to happen much more often.

There is a starting option that delays determining winner using score by specified number of years. So you could always put something like 30 years in there.

[Nightskies]

Oh, regarding "Could it be that the game got harder with the updates given the AI is smarter?": Yes. The automation, and AI, performs discernibly better than it did months ago.

Its difficult to quantify how much more so it is, but there have been a lot of updates that have improved the automation in every field I can think of (economy, picking research, fleet logic, unit pathing, logistics, etc). Under the automation, once one side has taken more hits than it can recover from, the other side is more proficient at sweeping up the rest. It is also more assertive at claiming desirable locations. Some of the AI's most egregious expenditures have been alleviated in several ways. Then AI empires now have a minor cheat- free Research funding- that helps them keep up. Its small enough that its hardly an advantage, but goes a long way to keep them from crippling themselves without it.

However, almost all these improvements also apply to the player's empire when it uses automation. I think a human still has the edge, especially considering all the features the player has access to that the AI won't utilize.

IMO, finding the 'just right' difficulty in galaxy setup is something that will be unique to each player, further depending on what they have in mind for that particular game.

[Sabaithal]

It would be nice if the AI attempted subjugation and such instead of just mass conquering/exterminating anyone it went to war with.

One big step could be to make the AI not outright ignore war-weariness...

[russlog6]

i posted earlier today about this issue. I play Extreme and every game since the update the Teekan have got bigger fleets, more colonies and are far further along in research to the extent of getting all the 1 per galaxy research. I have had good starts, and every time by the time I am around 17% the Teekan are around 56%. This is a matter that needs rebalancing.

The OP was talking about Dayut and Shakiri always winning. I don't have those DLCs, which is why I think for me it is the Teekan.

And yes, I keep going. The only real remaining strategy is to expand thru colonisation. The problem is that the other empire is also expanding as fast. However the difference is that I am in negative cash flow, while the Teekans are obviously not. I think since the devs tweaked the colony development algorithms, planet selection has become more critical to cash flow. What I was doing was getting poor quality planets and building them up with terraforming etc. Which means negative cash flow until I can build them up. The AI is finessing the calcs for development etc to maximise its cash flow. I can understand this. What I can't understand is how the AI is finding and colonising good quality planets so quickly. I ramp up to 60 explorers very quickly and do not build military fleets until I have researched destroyers. So everything is going into explorers, yet the other empire is still beating me.

With 60 explorers out very early, as you can imagine, the opportunities for Research Stations ramp up, and I am colonizing everything I can lay my hands on to build Stations to expand research further, yet I am obviously still behind the other empire. How are they getting along the research tree so quickly?

Eventually I grind out more colonies than the Teekans (it's the same every time) and overtake them in game progress, but not enough to gain victory conditions. The Teekans eventually declare war and it becomes an arm wrestle between two 150+ planet empires. In that scenario, because the AI has equal fleet strength, and can handle 30+ fleets better than I can, it wins every time.

ATM I don't think it is possible to beat the AI since the update at Extreme. I would love to hear from others who are playing extreme atm.

[Ax4711]

I was able to box in the Teekans in my game, but the little hamsters were very active indeed and it's possible they would have become unstoppable. At the same time, some other "empires" didn't take off at all and stayed at one or two systems before they got conquered. These were the extreme outliers, most empires were somewhere in the middle.

The AI gets nassive bonuses in population growth on extreme difficulty, so they will always look better than the player. I think the keys to better games are:

- manual play as much as possible, you can do everything better than the AI
- smaller galaxy, otherwise you have to go really slow and it becomes tedious and ridiculous as you said, with tons of things happening at once.
- with the smaller galaxy, well planned starting conditions for the AI: excellent home systems, some ordering wrt. distance.

[Nightskies]

"- manual play as much as possible, you can do everything better than the AI"

This. Even exploration. You should be able to conquer a neighbor (not an independent) before they get on their feet, especially if they're starting ahead of you in tech.

"and can handle 30+ fleets better than I can"
Why is that? Play it slow, methodically.

I don't like Extreme. The negatives are ... extreme ... and seemingly require the player to pull all the cheese, and ... extreme ... methodical play.

[jorgen_cab]

I also don't like to play on Extreme as the game balance between player and AI become a bit distorted, hard is OK.

I rather have the galaxy be a more living and dynamic place so I have the AI be a few tech level ahead and in various levels of development.

This I find is the best way to experience the game and will give a pretty challenging game. I would say I will not even manage to be the top empire in every game either with this settings and that is just fine. My goal is never to win anyway, just to experience the story and see if I can manage to survive and prosper as much as possible.

It is more about playing the game and overcoming the challenges thrown at me. Once I deem most challenges are gone, which can be the game is too easy or too hard, I just quit and restart.

I don't think the game on Hard is very difficult if all empires start at pre warp... the AI are still quite predictive in general. Even with incurring some restrictions on my self I can easily outpace the AI in such a scenario. This always happens with games like these as the AI is still an AI and the player who knows the mechanics will always be more efficient.

If you rely on mostly using all automation this is when you will find the game becoming quite difficult at harder settings.

[russlog6]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

"- manual play as much as possible, you can do everything better than the AI"

This. Even exploration. You should be able to conquer a neighbor (not an independent) before they get on their feet, especially if they're starting ahead of you in tech.

"and can handle 30+ fleets better than I can"
Why is that? Play it slow, methodically.

I don't like Extreme. The negatives are ... extreme ... and seemingly require the player to pull all the cheese, and ... extreme ... methodical play.

The OPs issues and mine refer to changes since the update. I always won games in Extreme and Chaotic before the latest update, so I am no slouch at the game.

Negative rep, especially in Extreme is a game killer. So conquest, even of independents, early game bogs you further down in negative cash flow.

As I stated I already spend the first 3/4s of the game in negative cash flow because I am pushing exploration - this is absolutely vital to just keep pace with the leading empire.

I am not talking about 30+ ships in a fleet, but 30 plus fleets. I defy anyone to handle 30+ fleets better than the AI when it is evenly or better matched in terms of research, and colony development.

Before the update, I was better than the leading AI empire at exploration and research, if not at end game fleet engagements. Yes you have to 'pull all the cheese', but when you have game experience, then it is easier to do so. I found game play at the lower levels very mundane and predictable.

Now, at extreme, apparently the AI IS better at exploration, research and fleet engagements, even with everything on manual. And yes you have to manually direct your fleet/fleets to attack a single opposition ship at a time. You win that battle and maybe a few others but the AI seemingly effortlessly directs many fleets to fill the gap.

I think the game is impossible to win at extreme atm. Play a few games at extreme with the current balance and tell me I'm wrong.

[Nightskies]

Are you implying with an otherwise normal start- all empires @ starting tech, use auto-generated empires?

I'll do another Extreme game with the new beta doing the Mortalen Feudal government, using the settings you proscribe. Just gotta have the end-game throw-down between this Fourth Railgun Empire (human) vs the still superior Dhayut empire. To see how a fighter-focused navy fares under automation...

[russlog6]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

Are you implying with an otherwise normal start- all empires @ starting tech, use auto-generated empires?

I'll do another Extreme game with the new beta doing the Mortalen Feudal government, using the settings you proscribe. Just gotta have the end-game throw-down between this Fourth Railgun Empire (human) vs the still superior Dhayut empire. To see how a fighter-focused navy fares under automation...

Yep. Normal game pre-hyper. Chaotic as well. Me as Human Republic. My fleets measure 8000K+ as I hammer the upgrades, and I am still getting whipped.

I use 9 empires because of 700 star chart. This may be a factor on reflection. A more cramped map with 12 could dramatically alter the outcome. Eg the Boscarens or Mortalen have an advantage in conquering neighbors and don't suffer as much neg rep. So in a more cramped map I think they will perform better.

I don't have the DLCs where as the OP mentioned the mantle seemed to be carried by the Dhayut and the Shakturi. As they are aggressive, they may do better on cramped star maps. Although they are weak on research. Thing is the Teekan as strong on research and in a less cramped starmap their relatively week military strength may be negated by lack of near enemies. This is all theory of course. I'll try a more cramped star map myself, though on Chaotic it's going to be crazy.

Also I could try to wipe them out early game, but I fear the neg rep will leave me too hobbled to win the game.

I thought about leaving the Teekan out to see if the same issue occurred, but it seemed a bit of a bother manually listing the races you want. Unless there is a way to say no Teeken. Haven't checked.

Also, I haven't actually played Normal or even Hard since the update to see if the new mechanics affect game play.

[ZumZoom]

Originally posted by russlog6:

Eventually I grind out more colonies than the Teekans (it's the same every time) and overtake them in game progress, but not enough to gain victory conditions. The Teekans eventually declare war and it becomes an arm wrestle between two 150+ planet empires. In that scenario, because the AI has equal fleet strength, and can handle 30+ fleets better than I can, it wins every time.

Why not restrict colonization range + colony prevalence? I set range to 150m (8x8, 1000 stars - scale similarly with galaxy size), colony prevalence and independents to rare. With this AI is able to colonize, but rarely outpaces me on extreme.
Similar scenarion to yours did happen in my last game though, funnily enough I was playing teekan, and a human empire became the steamrolling one.

[BATTLEMODE]

Man I'm really excited to hear this, if it's true. Finally a difficult space 4X :D