Gear vs Stats: Any point to attributes?

[Stray952]

While agonizing over starting traits I noticed that the ones that give you 5% of any attribute are garbage. You have to get to 21 base stat before thats more than one point bonus.
This then made me realize how useless all the stats kind of are.

So, my thinking is...
The equipment gives you points in damage and armor (effectively CON) equivalent to putting several levels into either your primary damage stat or constitution.

Given that, you're much better off putting your levels into things like Crit%, movement and willpower, right?

I mean, those things will actually change how the character plays on the field.

[Atma]

Originally posted by Stray952:

@HereticRivga
You're very right about one thing and very wrong about another. People are not considering that low Crit% does NOT equal 0 Crit%, and base damage has a big effect both. So, it is not as simple as +2 base damage vs base damage *Crit%*CritDamage.

I ran the numbers and the thing I was surprised to find was that you're actually flip-flopped. I took a Ranger and calculated their avg DPS from lvl 3-10, one putting all into DEX the other Crit%. The DEX build actually catches up to the Crit build at lvl 10 (and I assume keeps going)

I think the issue is that the increases to critical chance are not proportionally matched in critical damage, so you quickly hit a floor... there's only so much advantage to be had getting 2% improvements to 9 Dex or whatever.

I still think DEX/STR/CON are the worst thing to put your points into because you can hit more/be hit less with more movement, but the lesson here seems to be not to be anemic in any given stat.

Given that the ratio for Crit%/CritDamage start out at like 6/35 or whatever, but then only goes up by 2 in each... wait I found a table for this online....

I think that the real takeaway here is that obviously both damage and crit have a mutual relationship, but how much crit would you have at ~lv10 if you put 0 points into it and pumped all Str? Vice versa?

Now how much does that compare to the amount of Str found on weapons/layers/etc and is it WORTH putting more points into Str vs Crit?

The argument has never been that Str is worthless or that Crit is worthless.

The argument is that at level 12, at perfect stats, you are adding ~24 Str as opposed to ~24% crit.

Is the addition of that ~24 damage per hit MORE VALUABLE than the addition of ~24% crit per hit at endgame?

I personally don't feel that it is, because 24 Str is nothing when there's 50+ on my weapon by itself. But I'm definitely not getting 24% crit elsewhere as easily.

[Schalimah]

Originally posted by Sigs:

You've really latched on to this random 120 stat number. Reread wherever you found that again.

If this stat guide is right, your secondary bonuses from main stat cap at

+30% additional critical damage (totaling 55% additional damage) at 50 str.

+30% additional critical chance (totaling... 30%) at 50 dex

Minimal crit chance from Willpower (stops at 15, so 3% at 15 will?)

Those values are definately off.
I know for a fact that 16 willpower gives another 1% crit chance.
Unequiping my weapon and reequiping it makes a difference of 25% crit chance (97 dex dagger).
10% from the oil, 5% from duelist and another 10% from the dex.
The character already has 50 dex without the weapon.

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Originally posted by Stray952:

@Rivga
Your argument is that you don't bother putting into Crit% because you don't see crits happen at a rate you think is significant. That is invalid logic.

If you (A) put more points into Crit%, (B) then you will Crit more often and harder (A therefore B & C). Then we can debate about whether that's better than other options.

You're saying you didn't put into crit (Not A) and didn't observe a crit% making a difference (Not B...).

Not only is that not a valid refutation, it actually implies what were all saying. You can't debate which whether Crit or STR/DEX is better because you don't have an alternative premise.

Try and think of it this way: The tier 1 iron dagger can (realistically) be made at Lvl. 2 gives +8 Dex and +40% Crit% when backstabbing. That is equivalent of 4 levels of DEX... before you're even level 4. Deserter's Brigandine has base 40 armor and is dropped by lvl 2 enemies. Which is equivalent to putting 10 levels all into CON.

Those are facts, that is the premise of the argument.

You can either put your points into something like STR/CON, or you can put them into things like Crit%/Movement.

You seemed to have misunderstood what I said, I only neglected to add the additional increase that str had on the crt increased dmg. Which ONLY gives a disadvantage for the Str calculation and pre 120 ish Str is the better stat to increase, even without taking into account the secondary effect of str.

Movement is a seperate argument, in noth cases str vs Crt you put in your required movement.

Run the numbers yourself, formula wise Str/dex is better for the majority of the game.

[Stray952]

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

Originally posted by Stray952:

@Rivga
... The tier 1 iron dagger can (realistically) be made at Lvl. 2 gives +8 Dex and +40% Crit% when backstabbing. That is equivalent of 4 levels of DEX... before you're even level 4. Deserter's Brigandine has base 40 armor and is dropped by lvl 2 enemies. Which is equivalent to putting 10 levels all into CON.

Those are facts, that is the premise of the argument.

You can either put your points into something like STR/CON, or you can put them into things like Crit%/Movement.

Movement is a seperate argument, in noth cases str vs Crt you put in your required movement.

Run the numbers yourself, formula wise Str/dex is better for the majority of the game.

Ok, I did.

Here are my takeaways:

Crit%/CritDamage have a bad relationship because they both increase linearly by 2. So when you start out, bumping your Crit% from 4 to 10 gives a disproportionate boost to your averaged damage output. However, as Crit% goes up, CritDMG doesn't keep pace, - i.e. it isn't worth it to sink levels into 30% crit chance that only buffs your damage 55%.

On the flip side, if you ignore Crit% you're essentially just forfeiting a ~15-20% boost to your avg damage output. The sweet spot seems to be ~1-to-3 relationship, (1-2 is really bad).

Now, you can look at these numbers on a giant table, but I think that would be misleading. This game is grindy, and whats the max level currently, 12? You're going to put at least 2-3 of those into movement, maybe a few into willpower or con.

We're not talking about 100 levels here, we're realistically talking about what you're going to pick 2-3 times before equipment makes it irrelevant. It isn't really a question of which is better, it is a question of whether you're going to leave your Crit at 4% and basically pretend the mechanic doesn't exist.

I would advise against that.

[funkmonster7]

@Stray952

Atma basically said what I've been saying all this time, on this thread and any other thread that talks about this Str/Dex vs Crit issue.

Originally posted by Atma:

The argument has never been that Str is worthless or that Crit is worthless.

The argument is that at level 12, at perfect stats, you are adding ~24 Str as opposed to ~24% crit.

Is the addition of that ~24 damage per hit MORE VALUABLE than the addition of ~24% crit per hit at endgame?

I personally don't feel that it is, because 24 Str is nothing when there's 50+ on my weapon by itself. But I'm definitely not getting 24% crit elsewhere as easily.

This is the quote. Now, I'd like to say this again, as I've said this a bunch of times already...

You're not gonna get to level 8 that easily without your starting Str/Dex numbers. Not with your starter mercs at least. You only start getting decent stats from equipment after level 8 or so. Before that, even level 5 crafted equipment don't really add that much to your overall damage. Your raw stats give you about half the stats you get from weapons at that stage. This is the main reason why at the start you don't invest into Crit stat. This is just for your starter mercs. This strategy doesn't apply to mercs you hire at level 10 right out the gate, and you've already got ways to get them equipment that give them that +50 Str or whatever it is, right from the beginning.

At the start of the game, you're poor, you're weak, and every enemy exists to kill you or run your budget into the ground. If you roll with Crit stat at that stage, you're in for a rough game. Sure, you can trade, trade, trade and trade some more even on Region-locked mode, from Tiltren to Cortia and vice versa. But that is some seriously grindy ♥♥♥♥ just to min/max for a tiny bit of advantage in the end game. Besides, when you recruit mercs at level 12 (and they'll come at level 10 or whatnot), even if they don't have the titles that give them extra stat points they still have the advantage of being able to add 20 stat points to whatever you decide them to be, without worrying about game progression effects. But you try that at level 1, recruiting level 1 mercs, they'll have +2% crit chance and +2% crit damage, what is that going to do for them? Even if you try it at level 5, they'll still only have +6% crit chance and crit damage, that still doesn't amount to much (I'm factoring in 3 aptitude points for +6 movement by the way).

Adding points to Crit looks amazing when you get +20% bonus right off the bat. This is what you experience when you recruit a level 10 merc. When you recruit a level 1 merc, you only get +2% crit. And your weapon doesn't even give you the bonus stats which gives you the raw damage to make those crits worth their while. If you crit at low level, that's amazing, screen shake, huge number... But if you don't crit? You get hit. Hard. I have 2 Archers right now in my Region-locked mode, one going full Dex and the other full Crit, one with Perforating Oil and the other with War Bow and Sharpening Oil. The latter has 33% crit chance. She does amazingly when she crits. But when she doesn't? I'm glad I got bears to tank that damage. Before the bears, my own tanks got scuffed. Hard.

You can get +2 Str/Dex from armor layers. But that requires pre-planning, and in Region-locked mode for example, you might be going into a higher-level region where you get destroyed if something attacks you, just to get those layer recipes. That is if you even know where to get them.

This is why Crit build works better at the end; you have everything you need to restart from scratch with new mercs. Early on you have no such option.

Therefore, the advice people should be giving is:

Movement first (to anything higher than 12 since enemies have 12 movement), then Str/Dex (while your equipment still sucks), finally Crit if you want.

For mercs that you recruit at high level, if they're going to run a Crit build then add movement to anything higher than 12, and everything else into Crit.

This doesn't mean Crit = win all. You don't get to win all when you lose all right at the beginning.

[funkmonster7]

I should also add, there are many things that add crit chance to crit build. Stats is just a small part of that equation.

Equipment stats (Dex mostly) gives some crit %.

Base level stats give some crit % (mostly for Dex classes).

Duellist/Tormentor traits give +5% crit chance.

A Crime Path perk gives +5% crit chance when backstabbing.

You can get these at low/mid-level. But that is just a total of 20% or so crit chance. Adding your own stats through aptitude points is just gonna add what, 5%? 25% crit chance is not that much an improvement over 20%, just saying.

For mace users, they have Cruelty which is +20% crit chance to enemies with a debuff. Now, that is something worth considering... But you'd have to give up another amazing skill (Armor Break or something) to use Cruelty. Unless you're level 12 and you choose Class Specialization skill perk over the Bravery skill.

For Fighters, they have Destabilizing Strike which is automatic crit on enemies without guard. This means adding points to raise that 4% crit chance isn't going to help you (at a low/mid level that is).

Now, Rangers on the other hand have crafted daggers, they are effectively +30% crit chance when attacking from behind. On top of flanking bonus, which is another +20%, they are the ones that can reliably crit even at low/mid levels. Everyone else is just gonna have a hard time.

Here's the problem though; these skills (and their upgrades) are locked behind something, either level and/or money and/or path progression. The reason why I insist this Crit superiority is nonsense is it only looks good on paper. At the end of the day if you struggle to crawl your way to level 10, you're not gonna get that addictive crit frenzy you so desire. Because whenever you don't crit, you take a scuffing. And you take a lot of scuffings at the beginning of the game just because you're poor, you're weak and everything is out to get you.

My Region-locked characters are now level 5, and I have 6k money from trading and taming boars and fattening them and killing them for meat etc. I can fire all except 1 starter merc and then recruit fresh recruits easily, and give them all crit stat if I want to. And craft them equipment right away since I got more ores than I need. Or I can do that at level 10. It makes no difference financially speaking. But it does make a difference in terms of how effective these crit mercs would be at level 3, vs when they're level 10.

Also, on this topic of efficiency, Str vs Crit etc... A lot of people like Berserkers. They hit hard. With a specific legendary axe of course. But while you don't have that axe? And while your Berserker takes 3 hits before he's out of armor? And before he gets the skill upgrade that makes his 3-hit attack ignore Guard? He really isn't all that great. In fact, he probably sucks.

Just because you read someone saying "Berserkers are great, I do 300 damage in a single turn with him" doesn't mean if you run a pure Berserker team you'll score a win all. You'll get ♥♥♥♥♥♥, because the guy who said his Berserker hits like a truck is using gear you cannot possibly get at level 1. This is exactly the issue with Crit stat that everyone is hyping up about.

Now, as for adding to raw Str/Dex... That bonus statically improves your combat efficiency. You won't hit as hard as an endgame crit build but you definitely aren't going to hit like a wet noodle at the beginning of the game. So, your choice... game with the RNG god and curse yourself when you fail to crit at 20% chance; or play stably until you get to endgame where you can purchase whatever the hell you want.

[Khalunka]

I love how @funkmonster gave incomplete advices into these posts, and then had to come back again , and again, and again, because he was quoted since his texts didnt make full sense. But I think now you did it right. You properly explained the process.

[funkmonster7]

I don't recall anyone quoting me... But okay whatever...

[Sigs]

motte and bailey

bad faith arguments

backpedaling

moving goalposts

cherrypicking

strawmanning

This is insane. Getting your crit to set points is a statistical improvement in your damage that is more visible than using the same number of levels in the flat stat.

You get flat stats from gear at a much higher ratio than levels. The levels could be used for better things.

If you're having difficulties early on, get gear.

level make number go up small. small number less good than big number

gear make number go up big, big number good

[Sigs]

Originally posted by Schalimah:

Originally posted by Sigs:

You've really latched on to this random 120 stat number. Reread wherever you found that again.

If this stat guide is right, your secondary bonuses from main stat cap at

+30% additional critical damage (totaling 55% additional damage) at 50 str.

+30% additional critical chance (totaling... 30%) at 50 dex

Minimal crit chance from Willpower (stops at 15, so 3% at 15 will?)

Those values are definately off.
I know for a fact that 16 willpower gives another 1% crit chance.
Unequiping my weapon and reequiping it makes a difference of 25% crit chance (97 dex dagger).
10% from the oil, 5% from duelist and another 10% from the dex.
The character already has 50 dex without the weapon.

yeah, i just grabbed something from the guides section on here to make an example with hard numbers since the obvious is apparently invisible here. I guess I'm not surprised it's wrong, but the example probably still stands even if the data is off. I wish the sub numbers were actually around somewhere, but it probably wouldn't make a difference since *some people here are delusional anyway.

[buchecker]

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

Now, as for adding to raw Str/Dex... That bonus statically improves your combat efficiency. You won't hit as hard as an endgame crit build but you definitely aren't going to hit like a wet noodle at the beginning of the game. So, your choice... game with the RNG god and curse yourself when you fail to crit at 20% chance; or play stably until you get to endgame where you can purchase whatever the hell you want.

You know what boosts your combat efficiency the most in early levels? Movement.

It can often make the difference between being able to flank and backstab which offer much higher bonuses even for non crit based builds.

Early levels: movement > anything
Mid levels: get Willpower up on those chars that didnt start with 15 base, because getting +50% damage as quickly as possible is big
Late levels: does not matter at all anymore, if you want to min/max crit is the way to go tho and thats because raising crit not only does on average more damage but it also allows you to less hit kill things. 2 extra damage will make absolutely no difference if you still need the same amount of hits to kill things. A crit might, so in thw worst case (no crit) its the same number of hits and in the crit case you might one shot things, which also helps with VP costs.

[Kehldael]

Originally posted by Atma:

Originally posted by Stray952:

@HereticRivga
You're very right about one thing and very wrong about another. People are not considering that low Crit% does NOT equal 0 Crit%, and base damage has a big effect both. So, it is not as simple as +2 base damage vs base damage *Crit%*CritDamage.

I ran the numbers and the thing I was surprised to find was that you're actually flip-flopped. I took a Ranger and calculated their avg DPS from lvl 3-10, one putting all into DEX the other Crit%. The DEX build actually catches up to the Crit build at lvl 10 (and I assume keeps going)

I think the issue is that the increases to critical chance are not proportionally matched in critical damage, so you quickly hit a floor... there's only so much advantage to be had getting 2% improvements to 9 Dex or whatever.

I still think DEX/STR/CON are the worst thing to put your points into because you can hit more/be hit less with more movement, but the lesson here seems to be not to be anemic in any given stat.

Given that the ratio for Crit%/CritDamage start out at like 6/35 or whatever, but then only goes up by 2 in each... wait I found a table for this online....

I think that the real takeaway here is that obviously both damage and crit have a mutual relationship, but how much crit would you have at ~lv10 if you put 0 points into it and pumped all Str? Vice versa?

Now how much does that compare to the amount of Str found on weapons/layers/etc and is it WORTH putting more points into Str vs Crit?

The argument has never been that Str is worthless or that Crit is worthless.

The argument is that at level 12, at perfect stats, you are adding ~24 Str as opposed to ~24% crit.

Is the addition of that ~24 damage per hit MORE VALUABLE than the addition of ~24% crit per hit at endgame?

I personally don't feel that it is, because 24 Str is nothing when there's 50+ on my weapon by itself. But I'm definitely not getting 24% crit elsewhere as easily.

But... 24 STR when you have 50 on your weapon is a flat 48% increase in damage... That's more than the 24% crit, since a crit will increase your damage by 24%, and you only crit 24% of the time. Which means that with probabilities, you only increase your damage by less than 10%

Or am I getting something wrong ?

[buchecker]

Originally posted by Kehldael:

But... 24 STR when you have 50 on your weapon is a flat 48% increase in damage... That's more than the 24% crit, since a crit will increase your damage by 24%, and you only crit 24% of the time. Which means that with probabilities, you only increase your damage by less than 10%

Or am I getting something wrong ?

Crafted weapons with level 11 requirement will add between 60 and 100 main attribute points add to that armor layers(3x2) and profession (max 10). With your base value that reduces a flat 24 increase to 28%%(24/86) - 19%(24/126). Thats why only in higher levels is better in terms of average damage increase. However crit has other advantages that make it slightly better but the differences are so minor its not worth stressing about.

[mitina.e]

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

Originally posted by Schalimah:

Did some experimenting here.

Critical hits are always calculated from the skills max roll.
The average damage formula would then look somewhat like this

(1-c/100)*((A*MIN/100+A*MAX/100)/2)+(c/100)*(A*MAX*(1+C/100))

c = crit chance
C = crit damage
A = attribute (strength/dexterity)
MIN = minimum damage multiplier (e.g. skill deals 80% - 100% dexterity)
MAX = maximum damage multiplier (e.g. skill deals 80% - 100% dexterity)

Which stat is better is very dynamic.
for most of my characters +1 crit chance and damage is slightly better than +1 dexterity/strength.
And while in the beginning, you get the secondary benefit from strength/dexterity every 2-3 points, later it is only every 10+ points (aka diminishing returns).

Adding a Wrongdoer (+30% crit damage to all party members) to your party heavily skewes the results towards crit.

Additional findings while testing this:
- perforating oils description is missleading.
I understood it as basically halving the targets guard.
It actually reduces the guard by a flat 50.
Any target with less than 50% guard is treated as having no guard.

- Bandit heater shield actually reduces arrow attacks by 80%, not 90% as advertised

Yes if you build your team around high crit, but is a Wrongdoer bonus better than another person doing dmg.

You also need to factor in if your Str is higher your base dmg that is being multiplied on crt is also higher.

As pointed out it is only when str/dex gets into 120 plus zones that THEN crt stat becomes superior. Before reaching that point anyone pushing str will have a advantage, then can pivot to crt with food etc.

Unless I am missing something this only really come into effect at lvl 11 to 12.

I think if you are not respecing in those final levels the Dex/Str is the better option and maybe the better option for all one handers.

My five cents.
Wrongdoer is also a person doing dmg. They don't get additional attacks from valor points and don't earn them, but, their faction perks are somewhat useful. Also, there is an item that improves your damage by 30% but you can't use skills other than the basic weapon attack. As they don't have other skills anyway, it's a flat 30% increase. Alternatively, you can teach them Wrath skill.
As for usefulness of the "looting experience" itself, it obviously scales with the party's numbers, while the Wrongdoer's "lack of usefulness" doesn't. It's hard to give an exact formula, but let's get an estimate. Say, my party crits 20% of the time. The feat adds 30% to the damage on crit, so on average it improves damage by 0.2*0.3=0.06
(or 6%)on each attack. So, in terms of average DMG, it gives you an equivalent of extra fighter per 1/0.06 = 17 fighters.
Considering that Wrongdoer is "half a fighter" himself, it's worth to have him (instead of a regular guy) when your party reaches 8-9 members.

Now, 20% crit chance is a low estimate, considering various automatic crit conditions, increased chance with daggers, etc. On the other hand, you'll often get overkill with crits, and they aren't as useful as a non-random damage increase because you can't rely on them happening on this particular attack. So, my estimate may be somewhat wrong for your particular party composition. But it's definitely not worthless.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by buchecker:

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

Now, as for adding to raw Str/Dex... That bonus statically improves your combat efficiency. You won't hit as hard as an endgame crit build but you definitely aren't going to hit like a wet noodle at the beginning of the game. So, your choice... game with the RNG god and curse yourself when you fail to crit at 20% chance; or play stably until you get to endgame where you can purchase whatever the hell you want.

You know what boosts your combat efficiency the most in early levels? Movement.

It can often make the difference between being able to flank and backstab which offer much higher bonuses even for non crit based builds.

Early levels: movement > anything
Mid levels: get Willpower up on those chars that didnt start with 15 base, because getting +50% damage as quickly as possible is big
Late levels: does not matter at all anymore, if you want to min/max crit is the way to go tho and thats because raising crit not only does on average more damage but it also allows you to less hit kill things. 2 extra damage will make absolutely no difference if you still need the same amount of hits to kill things. A crit might, so in thw worst case (no crit) its the same number of hits and in the crit case you might one shot things, which also helps with VP costs.

Yes... I know about movement > anything. That's why I always suggest Movement to 16 at the very beginning. This is usually from level 1 to 4, depending on whether I get camping monologue or titles. I choose 16 because tanks wearing heavy armor get a -2 penalty, but 14 is still 2 more from the fastest bandit. Whereas 18 for Rangers is enough to get to places. My Rangers also generally have Instinctive Throw upgraded. And I run a team with a Sentinel who uses upgraded Ovation for map-wide Inspiration buff. That is a total of 28 movement for my tanks, 32 for medium armor bruisers and 36 for assassins.

The issue here is a lot of people suggest adding to crit like it is the meta... I mean, it is the meta. But you can't respec stat points anymore. I seem to recall in EA you could, but now not anymore. I could be wrong though, I put the game down in EA for a considerable amount of time and didn't start playing until full release, so my memory is quite hazy.

This means the hard stats you put in at level 1-5 is permanent. That means when adding to stats, we have two categories of mercs: the ones who start out with nearly nothing, and the ones who start out rich with sugar daddies getting them whatever crit gear they want.

"All into crit" is something people suggest as a general blanket advice. This is usually after adequate amount of Movement points is allocated, hence this goes without saying... Hence why I don't usually mention this anymore. Anyway I digress. "All into crit" (after movement points etc) is rubbish, because crit stat only become a reliable source of damage when you can output it consistently. Raw stats give consistent damage output. You can have a weak sword and still hit fairly hard without playing ball with the RNG god. The thing is, we can run numbers on a spreadsheet and analyse it as an "effect over time". But such an effect means nothing if your merc died after 4 rounds of combat because he failed to crit at 20% chance.

Statistically, 20% chance to crit isn't you're going to crit once out of five rounds guaranteed. By the second round for example, you have 64% chance of not critting at all over the entire two rounds; 32% chance of making 1 crit out of 2 attacks, and 4% chance of making 2 crits.

The chance of you making a crit every round by the third round is 0.8% if your base chance is 20%. Meanwhile, the chance of you missing every crit chance by the third round is 51.2%.

This means by the third round where your armor probably gets wasted by (at least at a lowe level where your guard is still around 36% not 60%), you only have 49.8% chance to make at least one crit out of three hits. Three wet noodle hits.

Now, I'm being generous when I say you have 20% chance to crit at level 1-3. Rangers have a higher chance no doubt, but if we're talking about the tank, he has no flanking bonus. His base crit chance is 5%. So... You really think 10% crit chance at level 3 is really gonna cut it? That is a good way to die, is what I can say to you.

The effective chance to not make a single crit at all by round 5, at 20% chance per round, is 32%. That is a low number, but you realistically wouldn't stay engaged with the same enemy by round 5. In mid/late game you want to end that engagement by round 2 because staying engaged means a slew of other debuffs such as enemies getting +30% more damage on you, plus they prioritize you. This is where reliable damage has to step in whether you factor in crit chance or not. Making Crit your main build is suicidal in nature.

I'm not saying "you" as in to you specifically, btw. But putting points in movement is kinda moot as well. I have 28 effective movement with Ovation active. I can regain more than 2 VP per round, and more than 2 VP per rest. Getting 20 movement is really, really pointless. Now, getting some little bits of Str/Dex at a stage when I sorely lack the stats from both equipment and profession... That is a bonus I would not pass up on just for a bigger yellow number by the time I get to a stage where I'm overkilling everything, if I ever will even get there.