Denuvo Master Thread

[Daarkarr0w]

Hey everyone,

We understand the concern of some members of the community regarding Denuvo. This is why we have created this thread to share our official answer and for you to discuss the topic.

Please keep the discussion about this topic on this thread, to keep the rest of the Steam forums for other conversations. Any new thread regarding the topic will be merged into this "master" thread. It will be easier to follow the discussion, not only for you but for us to keep an eye on the topic.

We wanted to start this thread with the official answer.

Astamarr の投稿を引用：

Hello Everyone,
I’m Astamarr, the developer responsible for the task of integrating Denuvo DRM to ENDLESS Dungeon. I'll try to answer your concerns about the Denuvo DRM, and what it means to install a game that contains it.

Let me say that I'm first and foremost a player, just like you. I've faced numerous disastrous DRMs implementations during the years, and i know that it can cause a great deal of frustration. With that in mind, I'll try to be as clear and honest as possible in the following statement.

1) First of all, it's important to make a distinction between Denuvo anti-cheat and Denuvo DRM.

Denuvo Anti-Cheat is a software installed on your computer. Every anti-cheat on the market operates like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer hardware and software and doing... stuff to ensure that you're playing fairly.
TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one. No third-party software will be installed on your computer.

What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's just some verifications made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did indeed buy the game.

Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all times, or even for the Denuvo server to be online. Once this check is made, you'll be able to play offline.

2) The second main concern about these DRMs are performances issues. Theses checks can indeed have a great impact on performance. It's pretty easy to understand: if the checks are triggered every time the player makes a basic action (like, for example, moving the character), it'll spam requests non-stop and it'll be disastrous.
On the other hand, if we barely do any checks at all, it'll be pretty easy for hackers to crack the DRM and the whole process will be worthless.

Of course, there is a balance to find here: more checks means a more secure game, but a greater impact on performance.

At Amplitude, we're doing everything necessary to find the perfect balance to have a decently protected game, and to intelligently place requests so that they do not impact performance. This requires time, which is why we are already tackling it now.

We have efficient tools to monitor performance closely, and we will put every effort until release (and after if needed!) to ensure that. Regardless of how things change in the market we will always make sure that our players have access to the game that they have bought.

To summarize, let's say this: we will try our best to avoid that the game gets hacked at release -- because we put a lot of hard work into our games, and we do have bills to pay. We will never compromise on the quality of game, the experience, and the privacy of our players for it.

Please keep the conversation civil and don't enter into personal attacks.

[Sri]

Ghojo の投稿を引用：

JJ の投稿を引用：

I can't remember when last I spoke to anyone who still pirates games.

It's really not as common anymore as it was in the 90's and early 2000's.

Of course companies like Denuvo want you to believe otherwise and make you scared of the big evil pirates that will ruin your game (even though there's zero evidence for that), because that's how Denuvo and co is making their money.

And they are making a lot of it, Denuvo is really not cheap. Which in turn makes games worse because the studios have to cut features, as they have to calculate their costs for Denuvo into their estimate.
But such facts really fly over the heads of the Denuvo fangirls like in this discussion.

Sure, the developers all are stupid and waste money, you are the only guy who knows the truth.
And "fangirls", really? Is this supposed to be an insult?^^

[Vin]

JJ の投稿を引用：

I can't remember when last I spoke to anyone who still pirates games.
I just don't like buying anything with additional software snapped on...other clients, anti cheats, DRM etc. There are enough games out there to ignore the few that add bloat.

so true. while ill buy games that have denuvo sometimes (it depends and only on sale.) i will flatout not buy any game or accept any gifted games that have EAC.

[Grimaldus]

IDK how this online coop works, but if we are talking about using server instead of p2p then even less reason to use Denuvo.
I don't hate Denuvo that much, but certainly appreciate if there is none.
Dang, cus I just saw it not long ago and thought it will be good for group gaming, so I made quite some recommendations among different groups before open discussion or have a good look of store page, now I'm kinda regret it rn.
Hope dev could see the light and make a better decision before release.

[Crusader_bin]

lukaself の投稿を引用：

Hey everyone.

After the backlash caused by the announcement of Humankind using Denuvo and the discussions between the developers and the customers which occured, I'm left to wonder what was the point of even acknowledging our concerns - seeing the issues caused by that DRM solution (Unplayable games, performance issues and incompatibilities,), only to use Denuvo again in the next game? Dunno if it's a SEGA mandate and at this point, I'm not sure it matters.

I used to be a big fan of Amplitude, got all the games and additional content day one... I absolutely love the whole "Endless" Universe. However, Denuvo is counter-productive as it's a waste of development resources for no proven benefit. I don't see any incentive for consumers to shoulder the cost of the beliefs of some executive in denial. :yikes:

DRM & business practices
[Update] Denuvo to be removed for release
The day Amplitude broke my heart (and how they reassembled it)[www.games2gether.com]

Agreed, but the corpos will never learn. They want the users on tight leash and their wallets in their bank accounts.

Also:

[Enesch]

SAD ! i was about to buy it. I love the endless universe got all games. But with denuvo im out! Causes only trouble and spy on u at the same lv as MS

['Strict]

JJ の投稿を引用：

I can't remember when last I spoke to anyone who still pirates games.
I just don't like buying anything with additional software snapped on...other clients, anti cheats, DRM etc. There are enough games out there to ignore the few that add bloat.

Well at my age I don't know anyone that pirates (still) but back in the day when we were all 18-28 or whatever...it sure happened

[lukaself]

Grampire の投稿を引用：

Wazii の投稿を引用：

You can technically launch a game on steam without the DRM wrapper. Most games on steam do use it. However, the fact remains that there's the steam platform and then there's the steam DRM. They're not the same.

Saying the DRM and the platform are different is basically like saying the horse and the carriage are separate and different. Technically true but unless one or the other is somehow redundant to the title, neither works as well - or at all - when they're separated.

If you remove the wrapper from an .exe you lose access to any Steamworks integration the title might have, which if utilized is a pretty big value-added piece of the Steam platform. The developer then has to leverage another infrastructure for those services - if they offer them at all.

Basically Steam doesn't have to be a DRM but it's usually strictly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for everyone when it isn't.

Many games are DRM-free while using Steamworks and function just fine, if not better. For instance, Arkham Knight is one such game. Steamworks, the Store, the Client and the DRM are actually all separate mechanisms.
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_games_on_Steam

[GrinningRabbit]

Swanky の投稿を引用：

i dont make the rules sorry

Same. Honestly... im getting tired of companies not listening to their customers... so hey.. less money for them until they do. That's how business works.

I mean i WAS interested in this game.. then the DRM pretty much turned me instantly off to it. So.. keep that in mind devs.

[Grinnar]

Steam already IS DRM, so adding an extra layer, a poor performing one at that, is just bonkers. Why pay for the extra license?

[Pasquale Bambino]

As an anecdote : Borderlands 3 used to use Denuvo, I was getting 100~FPS on it with a 2021 i9 and a 3070 RTX ti on everything "Ultra"

It removed Denuvo and I'm now getting 170~FPS. That's my biggest gripe. It hampers the performance too much. Furthermore, if you visit any decent torrent site, they all have ripped games that implemented Denuvo thus negating it completely.

Sega will do what Sega does I guess, I had this wishlisted since 2020, not going to bother encouraging such garbage.

[Kuhnives]

I feel like the OP s some plant by Denuvo to down talk all the points lol.

[Timeraider]

Not sure wether people just only play badly implemented games or simply want to have something to hate without having experience with it.
Cant say ive ever in my life had issues, performancedecrease or any type of software intruding on anything outside of the game with any of the Denuvo games ive played.

[Zensuu]

You are full of ♥♥♥♥. You are literally spreading misinformation in this post, to the point I can't believe you are a real individual, and if you are real, you are horribly misinformed.

If you want garbage bloatware, spyware, and DRM on your machine, feel free, but the majority of us don't.

The argument that we want no DRM so we can pirate is complete nonsense. We will pirate it BECAUSE it has DRM.

[Sri]

Zensuu の投稿を引用：

You are full of ♥♥♥♥. You are literally spreading misinformation in this post, to the point I can't believe you are a real individual, and if you are real, you are horribly misinformed.

What exactly is false information? Feel free to prove it.
And while your are giving explanations anyway, tell "us" who do you mean by "we".
You and your family? Do they know that you use bad words?

[Zensuu]

Sri の投稿を引用：

What exactly is false information? Feel free to prove it.
And while your are giving explanations anyway, tell "us" who do you mean by "we".
You and your family? Do they know that you use bad words?

Denuvo does indeed include bloatware and spyware. The functions and "security" it provides are invasive in mine and many other's opinions. The entire "properly implemented" statement is complete bunk, every single denuvo game I have ever purchased has run like complete garbage. As soon as it is cracked or officially removed, I am able to play it with much better performance. Every. Single. Time. If there is any "properly implemented" denuvo that does not cause lag compared to a drm free version, I have not seen it.

"We" is referring to the vast majority of the pc gaming community who doesn't want intrusive and bloaty DRM in the games they purchase. To anyone who does even a minimal amount of research, it's pretty obvious that denuvo hurts paying customers much more than it hurts pirates. The fact is most people that pirate can't afford to purchase the media they are pirating. Loss of profit is really a non issue. All they are doing is lowering their reputation and hurting their customers.

Words are not inherently bad just because the culture you are embedded in taught you that. They are just words, we choose the meaning and the intention of said words.
I choose not to be offended by such "bad words" nor do I think they are bad or offensive for any reason whatsoever.

The burden of proof is on you my friend, you made the original assertion. You are supposed to prove the things you claim before you assert them as fact.

I ask you to provide proof for the following assertions:

1. "A properly implemented Denuvo doesnt interfer with time sensitive code."

Show me examples of this, of games with zero performance difference between the denuvo version and the denuvo free version, otherwise based on my experience this is an outright lie. I will be impressed if you can even provide/prove one example.

2. "And, yes, it is pretty effective."

In what? Making games run like ♥♥♥♥ for paying customers? The immoral and invasive collection of data? The prevention of offline multiplayer preservation? In those cases I agree. As I touched on before, I do not believe DRM causes any meaningful profit increase through the prevention of piracy. It does however increase profit through investors. Also, the cracking time is a poor argument. Scene cracking groups have returned to the competitive culture of the 90s. They do not crack games to get them to people for free, they have no interest in cracking all games or cracking games from day 1. They do it to show they can, as a show of skill to the scene community. These people are professionals in their fields that do it as a hobby, they probably intentionally waited months to crack these games, to minimize attention on themselves for obvious reasons.

3. "All this is misinformation spreaded by people who want to be able to get a pirated copy, or want to ride the hate-train to feel special."

This one is just silly, if not a complete projection. You are outright assuming everyone's feelings and goals, an entire demographic of people. We all feel this way for many various and complex reasons, that you fail to sum up in your reduction. This statement is complete bigotry, bordering on asinine.

4. "Bad words"
There is no "bad words". We are all victims of culture. It is all subjective, just because we were taught something growing up doesn't make it objectively true.