The chopping and mining "mini-game" are not fun or completly broken

[Dav_X_Little]

This is supposed to be an idle game with element of "rpg" and "mmo?!?" (still don't understand the mmo part of that game).... Yet some quest and believe loot are locked on a mini-game that is plain boring or broken.

Beside that... those mini-game are tied to a shared coldown of 5 try per account per day? I just don't understand the logic beind all this.

Can someone explain it?

[VegetaCZ]

Originally posted by haelsemikiro:

Look man, I'm not the developer. I'm neither obligated nor interested in addressing every point in your post. Neither is the developer for that matter. Since you mentioned it though, 38 fishing score isn't that bad. It takes some practice to know where the bobber lands when you charge it X amount, but that's asking people to get a little over half of what the achievement requires. Minigames are part of what this game is. It's not for everyone, and it's not mandatory. I'm sure Prayers being locked behind completing certain waves of the Tower Defense minigame is going to righteously fire some people up too. And we still have 5 more worlds of new minigames to come before this game is fully developed. Please look forward to it.

You say some interesting things. So now you say you're neither obligated or interested in addressing every single point I've raised, yet earlier you tried to refute my points on why minigames as of currently are flawed. If you're not going to give me the respect of addressing everything, then please, don't waste my time. I have also never expected the developer to read and address my response either. Whether he reads it and takes it seriously or not, I don't really care about, it's not my problem. Though for him to not take valid criticism into account is a bad thing on his part. If he wants to cater to a small minority that takes these minigames seriously and enjoys them over the majority that either sucks at the minigames or hates doing them, that's his problem to solve. After all, it's not our fault that his weird design choices drive people away from playing this game.

38 fishing score isn't that bad? There are people who can't get even 10 score for the quest. For me, getting 38 high score was easily the most unfun part in the whole game, due to the very limited amount of tries per day and due to the difficulty of the minigame. I personally wouldn't even bother with that dumb goal if it wasn't for the fact that it's mandatory for Bobbin' Bobbers. 38 Fishing power is a massive deal, considering even the best in slot Void Imperium Rod at base gives only 36 Fishing power. With the raise of talent levels via W3 library I can't even be bothered to go beyond my current highest high score of 39. At level 150 of Bobbin' Bobbers for example, the requirement/benefit is 55, and you can't tell me that is easy to reach. I doubt the skill level caps at 150 either, which just makes this problem only worse the higher we go. The claim "Minigames are part of what this game is. It's not for everyone, and it's not mandatory." is effectively only true for mining and catching minigames, since they're only useful for bonus loot, and ignoring them doesn't hurt the players in any major way. Ignore fishing and you will struggle with getting fish big time. Ignore choppin and you will lose out on a pretty decent source of damage in the late game, pretty big penalties to consider for forgoing those 2 minigames.

As for prayers, I agree that they're terribly designed also in terms of "optional content". The only real saving grace for those as of now is that the high wave prayers are typically garbage and the most important ones are unlocked at the lower waves. It could use some fixing like the other 2 minigames.

"And we still have 5 more worlds of new minigames to come before this game is fully developed. Please look forward to it."

Well, with such a strong emphasis on the minigames, I'd like to see just how many people are willing to put up with it for that long. The game will most likely survive, considering people are too busy buying dementia and platinum obols in the gem shop in large amounts, but if the game increases demands on minigame participation even further, the only people that will remain playing are the big whales and people who like these minigames. After all, who wants to be forced to play side content this aggressively? It's not what the people signed up for. This is the equivalent of playing a GTA game, but with the twist that your progress hinges on investing a lot of time into the arcade games (games' fully optional content), that are normally meant to be purely a distraction if you're bored with the main game, and getting good at them. I think that practically screams "bad game design" at the players.

[GretchStar]

Originally posted by Raiy:

And thats what many people do not get, it is NOT a regular Idle game. Stop comparing it with a genre which is just one of many sub genres of the game. Thats like comparing PUBG with CounterStrike, both are shooters... Tbh I do not understand why people are always crying because of the minigames. Its easy to get an okayish highscore in the minigames you need, which is only chopping and worship. I just do not see any "issue" there just because a few people say they are not fun.

So you're good at the minigames. GOOD FOR YOU. Most of us aren't. Nobody is suggesting they be removed so settle down. I only want them to be fully optional, as in, not required for quests. That's it.

[Dav_X_Little]

Originally posted by Raiy:

And thats what many people do not get, it is NOT a regular Idle game.

1 - I mean... it's in the title of the game - Legend of IdleOn... Idle.... On... What more do you want?

2 - The page URL of the game have Idle twice in it - "https://store.steampowered.com/app/1476970/Legends_of_IdleOn__Idle_MMO/"

3 - Game description - " IDLE: Your characters continue grinding while you're offline! No active grinding required, you've got better things to do with your time!"

4 - The game developper LavaFlame2 did the previous game IdleSkilling which was actually a better game that this game will ever be. And an actual Idle game.

Maybe the developper should actually rename the game to "Legend of ActiveOn"???
As for your comment... When you are selling your game as a Idle game.... I'm expecting it to be at least.... somehow... closely.... related to being an idle game....

At best... it's an Auto-Battler game.....

[76561198419728601]

eh worst part about the minigames is the random lag spikes and the mining minigame as a whole, other than that they're fine imo. though getting the fishing trophy is kinda harsh.
edit: ooh and minigames not able to be banked also kinda sucks, feel obligated to spam minigames

[GretchStar]

Can we stay on topic, please?

And Raiy. Saying "50 should be easy for everybody" is disgustingly ableist. Your experience is not the default experience and you need to adjust your worldview. Not everyone has what you would consider "normal" hand/eye coordination. Please be more respectful of other people.

[Dav_X_Little]

Originally posted by Raiy:

Your argument just says it is an idle game, it has to be the same like all these idleclickers and I do not care the other genres the developer taggged.

Hey, if it make you feel beter, feel free to think whatever you want and morph whatever I say to your liking so that it make you shine.

My argument is that this game sell itself as an idle game and it isn't one.

By the way. Still find it funny that the mini game are still being disliked, bugged and yet mandatory. Best idea ever.

[VegetaCZ]

Originally posted by Raiy:

Its not like Im good at them, most of them are just really easy in the beginning. Im in one of the biggest guilds and I do not know anybody with a chopping score under 75, 50 should be easy for everybody. And thats anyways jsut a boost of a few percents nobody cares about. And worship doesnt need any skill, just place as many pulse towers as you can and wait while upgrading.

Who or what gave you the idea that 50 choppin high score should be easy for everyone? If it's that easy, then why did Lava even entertain the suggestion to alter the quest requirements for Funguy's quest high score, requiring 42 high score points to finish it, which should be considerably easier than your definition of easy? There are people with legitimate disabilities playing this game, and then no matter how hard you push them, getting that quest requirement done just won't be happening anytime soon. The original adjustment was supposed to be 42 high score in one game, or 100 total in multiple tries. The adjustment failed, as the requirements were coded as "and" instead of "or", which made the quest unintentionally harder than it initially had been, and so Lava ended up adjusting the quest once more, removing the 100 total requirement, and reducing the initial high score demand from 42 to 35. Slight improvement, but not good enough.

Also I just can't comprehend why do you people keep glossing over the fact that the talent bobbin' bobbers requires you to be good at the fishing mini game to get the true benefit of the talent. Makes me wonder if you all do so just to strengthen the misconception that the minigames are fully optional, or if you genuinely don't understand how important that bonus fishing power is, for the dull and slow skill that is fishing.

[Sililos]

Chiming in to say i hate the minigames too. not fun.

[Yuno Gasai]

I only found this topic well of quest.
I hate minigames in this game and dont do them.
There is talents that boost your eff based on minigame score - i just dont get them. Maybe later, but no because i want to, because i will have to.
Now the game asks me to do a flappy birds catching game for 15 high score and 90 total score.
Fck off will ya?
I dont want to do this.
This is not fun.
This is not giving me anything but frustration.
If other people likes them - good for them.
What for u are forcing me to play these stupid games?
Most of them laggy and have weird hitboxes(hello mining game)
Leave them as part of minmaxing grinders.
Not part as MAIN QUEST.

[A Team]

Yeah there being achievements tied to the minigames is what I think is a bad call. The minigames lag.

[76561198419728601]

Originally posted by Yuno Gasai:

Now the game asks me to do a flappy birds catching game for 15 high score and 90 total score.
Not part as MAIN QUEST.

It's 15 high score OR 90 total score. So even if you suck like I did when working on the quest, you'll still complete it over time unless you score zero all the time. The quest is also not part of the main questline, you can reach w3 without ever speaking to Goldric.
The mining minigame though, yeah screw that one. Mercifully it's only part of a daily gp quest afaik.

[VegetaCZ]

Originally posted by Yuno Gasai:

I only found this topic well of quest.
I hate minigames in this game and dont do them.
There is talents that boost your eff based on minigame score - i just dont get them. Maybe later, but no because i want to, because i will have to.
Now the game asks me to do a flappy birds catching game for 15 high score and 90 total score.
Fck off will ya?
I dont want to do this.
This is not fun.
This is not giving me anything but frustration.
If other people likes them - good for them.
What for u are forcing me to play these stupid games?
Most of them laggy and have weird hitboxes(hello mining game)
Leave them as part of minmaxing grinders.
Not part as MAIN QUEST.

Oh yeah, I forgot about catching being important for progression as well. That means the situation I had been complaining about is even worse than I thought it was, sad. That also means the mining minigame is the only 100% optional minigame in this whole game... *sigh*

The talent Bobbin' Bobbers in the Barbarian tab is something that will undeniably force you to do the fishing minigame. 38 fishing power (the maximum provided value by the skill at level 100) for reaching 38 score in the minigame is no joke. Ignoring it is a bad idea, as your fishing efficiency will greatly suffer if you do that, and with that, good luck getting things like Bloaches or Jellyfish in high amounts, which happen to be a rather important resources in the late game. It doesn't help either that the W3 library pushes you to increase the cap on that talent further, therefore urging you to do even better at the fishing minigame to truly benefit from upgrades beyond level 100 of the talent. I really hate this. I'd rather have a talent that boosts fishing efficiency based on the amount of a specific resource that you have in your storage, like it is with choppin, mining and catching, than this forced participation minigame nonsense talent.

[VegetaCZ]

Originally posted by J.:

I think the counter argument here is that the only thing this does for you is gives you more resources. Over time (AFK) you will inevitably get the resources you need (Bloach) It is optional, just not if you want to be optimal. Between cards, poles, lures and rods, ((edit: Forgot also Alchemy)) you can still get 400+ gains per hour. Is that amazing? No. Will you eventually max everything anyways? If you play long enough. It's always a rush to the end. But then what?

I'm not saying it's great, or it should be, but it is what it is, and given enough time, Shaquaracy, Pharoah bows, Alt tab III, you'll get all that even without that 38 fishing power. If you feel so strongly about it, maybe write the dev with your complaints while providing possible solutions. For an 8th and 9th character, another Zerk is also useful is fishing is your need. (They will also be the first to get the first sub subclass) I'd also argue that comparing cutting and mining to fishing is a little disingenuous. You need far less bloach and jelly than you do the various tiers of wood and ore.

"I think the counter argument here is that the only thing this does for you is gives you more resources. Over time (AFK) you will inevitably get the resources you need (Bloach) It is optional, just not if you want to be optimal."

That argument is just pure nonsense. You could literally make the same argument about the other efficiency boosting talents as well: Teleki'Net'Ic Logs, Leaf Thief, Copper Collector, Sooouls, Invasive Species and others. You're technically not required to upgrade any of those talents to be able to get resources afk, yet it's very easy to satisfy the demands of those talents and benefit from upgrading them fully. Bobbin' Bobbers is an exception to this though, because this talent will simply not work for everyone, because not everyone is good at these minigames to be able to benefit from this skill. Why is Bobbin' Bobbers so not player friendly when the other efficiency talents are? Why should players be forced to have terrible fishing gains if they suck at the minigames, if the other specializations don't punish them in the same harsh way? I mean come on, this is ridiculous. Plus there are other, more significant, bottlenecks in this game that will take ages to overcome, I don't want fishing to add to the list of problems to worry about.

Also good luck doing refinery whenever Red Salt becomes relevant, which requires 5 bloaches per cycle at base with no rankups. Besides, doing alchemy, stamps, or even crafting the large fish pouch is horrible when it comes to getting bloaches without Bobbin' Bobbers. Shaquracy costs roughly the same amount of bloaches as FMJ costs fruit flies, yet fruitflies are much easier to farm than bloaches, and fruitflies also don't suffer from lack of a minigame score to get them in bigger amounts. There is nothing disingenuous about making the comparisons. Fishing is relatively similar to Catching, yet Catching is way easier than Fishing is. If anything, it's disingenuous to say that not being able to benefit from Bobbin' Bobbers is not an issue because you can still farm the fish, and that you can max everything out all the same, albeit at way slower rates, because if anything, that's a pretty big issue.

The suggestion to make another Barbarian just to go around the issue of low fishing efficiency due to the lack of a minigame score just acknowledges that the talent's design is flawed. Plus prioritizing making a Barbarian over the other classes so early will just hurt you in other areas. Instead of a Barbarian, you could make another Squire to help with construction and refinery cycles, or another Bowman for more fast smithing and mosquisnow/flycicle catching, which are both pretty significant bottlenecks in the W3 content - construction and W3 bugs. Since we currently have only 9 character slots, making another barbarian this early is not necessarily the best idea when there are better options for the 8th and 9th character slots.

Also, I've already stated my solution to the problem - just rework the damn skill so it's in line with the other talents (aka log multiplier of base efficiency bonus dependent on the amount of resources, in this case the resource could be goldfish or something similar to that).

There's absolute zero reason to punish players so hard for not doing or being good at the fishing minigame, if the other specializations don't do the same.

[VegetaCZ]

Originally posted by J.:

Cool. Type that up for the Dev. Also, try not to be so hostile to people just explaining how it is and why it might be like that.

How am I being hostile? All I'm doing is refuting your whole argument and explaining why your whole reasoning makes no sense. At this point I'm inclined to consider you a troll. Also, all I can say to that is, if you're going to throw a punch, then prepare to be hit back. If you can't deal with that possibility, then don't even bother.

[Sea Emp]

I don't see anything wrong with the Mini-Game, should be rewarded for being good at something even if its Niche. Cool change up to general game-plays.

Besides 5 tried is too less, and more being locked behind gems - its pretty chill.

If u find the refinery consuming too many resources, u can bring it up to Lava. That refinery upgrades should be more cost-efficient as you upgrade =)