How is Cloud better than SOLDIERs?

[Wolf]

I just got into FF7 lore recently and one thing I haven't found a clear answer to is--how is Cloud, despite never being a SOLDIER, outperform official SOLDIER members? I see in the original FF7, he even managed to take down its strongest member, Sephiroth, when Zack could not. The closest explanation I could find was that Cloud was a SOLDIER candidate, underwent some of its training, and met all the qualifications except that he was mentally undeveloped, so his SOLDIER training never continued. Is this the reason, or is the answer as simple as "plot armor"?

[Katitoff]

Hojos experimentation enhanced him and Zack beyond other SOLDIERs + he inherited Zacks memories and it seems combat experience as well + he still had to get to Midgar alone with plenty of fiends on the way once Zack sacrificed himself to protect him

[lieutenantkirtar]

iirc Cloud wasn't experimented on until after he beat Sephiroth the first time. He caught Sephiroth by surprise injuring him, then was able to overpower him due to that injury.

[Gumichi]

Other stuff can be explained with Mako Magic. If you're talking about the true Nibelheim flashback episode, then yes it's plot armor. There's no other way to explain how the Soldier dropout can lift Sephiroth with a sword running through him.

[medion_no]

They have already answered you here, I also think that Cloud always had great potential within him.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

There are 2 possibilities for this.

1. First of all Cloud and Zack are S-type Soldier, which are actually a more enhanced type compared to G-type, the more common type. For starters S-type don't degrade overtime like G-type. Also S-type uses Sephiroth genes therefore they inherit his superior strength. The downfall of S-type is Sephiroth influence on the host, downright able to possess them and become his mindless clones.

2. People tend to forget this is an RPG world, so yes the rules of experience and leveling up is part of the lore, which means fighting bigger and badder monsters gives them more experience and makes them stronger, this applies to anyone not just Soldiers. This allows even normal humans to be even stronger than Soldiers. Soldiers may be genetically enhanced so they have a boost advantage, but humans like Tifa that master their body with Chakra or the environment around them with mastery of Chi, they can surpass Soldier by defeating even greater threats than Soldiers are typically capable of. It's all training, the more training they do, they more experience they gets, the stronger they get. This is how Cloud eventually surpasses Sephiroth, which was considered the previous peak.

[Rhapsody]

It should also be noted that SOLDIER kinda went to ♥♥♥♥ after losing their top members few years prior. There's no active 1st class ranks by the end of Crisis Core, and the likes of Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis were the true supersoldiers. The director and their top scientist also deserted. No 2nd class Soldiers were notable in any way, except for Zack. Kunsel is still kicking in the Remake though.

The Turks also faced their own difficulties (in some situations performing duties of top Soldiers in their absence), meaning they'd have less resources in securing candidates.

Furthermore, Deepground exists, and was intended to replace the SOLDIER, with its public face and propaganda value intact, as the elite black ops force.

Edit: In the original game higher rank Soldier enemies would appear, and they would easily wipe the floor with Cloud & co of the early game. But they still represent the organization's "fall" and transformation into a more conventional security force.

[Pyro3000]

Originally posted by Wolf:

I just got into FF7 lore recently and one thing I haven't found a clear answer to is--how is Cloud, despite never being a SOLDIER, outperform official SOLDIER members? I see in the original FF7, he even managed to take down its strongest member, Sephiroth, when Zack could not. The closest explanation I could find was that Cloud was a SOLDIER candidate, underwent some of its training, and met all the qualifications except that he was mentally undeveloped, so his SOLDIER training never continued. Is this the reason, or is the answer as simple as "plot armor"?

If you think about it, there's no real difference between being in SOLDIER and having the memories of someone from SOLDIER shoved into your brain. I justify him beating Sephiroth in the past as Sephiroth just letting his guard down against a weakling.

But yeah it's really just plot armor/strength

[Rhapsody]

Originally posted by Pyro3000:

If you think about it, there's no real difference between being in SOLDIER and having the memories of someone from SOLDIER shoved into your brain.

Really depends who you are comparing with whom. Zack is probably the strongest "normal" human Soldier, but he too goes under the mako treatment to receive and develop his abilities, especially magical potential and the ability to manipulate materia growth.

Cloud's prowess is not a result of merely taking on Zack's persona. It's a combination of, in chronological order, very early mountaineer training/adaptation, adolescent practice and talent at swordsmanship, Shinra grunt training and work over two years, Nibelheim Incident wounding (negative effect), being injected with Jenova's genetic material, extended mako bath (eyes of mako and magical potential), and only finally, personal trauma and memories together with Jenova's effect enabling Cloud to absorb/adopt Zack's persona and a portion of his talents.

During Nibelheim Incident, Cloud was able to not only catch Sephiroth unaware, but also overpower the greatest Soldier ever with strength of both mind and body by self-impalement and rebuking Sephiroth, a moment which left lasting impact on Sephiroth as well, considering how he makes Cloud feel "the same pain" during their duel in Advent Children, which marks the only time Cloud finally defeated him fairly which essentially finalizes his power growth – supported by Zack.

For all we know, Cloud may always have possessed the capacity to become Soldier. AFAIK there's not telling how his grave wounds gained inside Nibelheim reactor would have inhibited tolerance to mako bathing.

Perhaps that is plot armor to you, but Cloud's growth is still well ordained into his character arc and not brought out of nothing.

[RunningWild]

Probably because Cloud bothered to level up, equip armor and materia.

[Sifer2]

Well he isn't massively stronger than regular grunt soldiers at the start of FF7. He merely claims to be a Soldier 1st class but isn't. The Mako bathing, and copying Zack's fighting style makes him strong enough to be a powerful Merc.

Now how he defeated Sephiroth in the flashback has no real explanation other than he caught him by complete surprise. It's not like he beat him in a sword fight.

[Mako]

Willpower and a bit of plot armor. Not a classic "man with a strong will" but he can show extreme levels in bursts when cornered.
Ironically because he didnt make soldier because he was deemed mentally weak to safely undergo procedure.
Rifleman Cloud vs Sephiroth isnt the only example. Hojo never managed to turn him into a full Sephiroth's "clone" despite years of experiments. Thats why Cloud is considered a reject/failure of "reunion" experiment and lacks fancy tattoo on his arm.
When game starts he may lack real sword combat experience (still has some) compared to real soldiers but has advantage of much more and longer mako exposure.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Mako:

Willpower and a bit of plot armor. Not a classic "man with a strong will" but he can show extreme levels in bursts when cornered.
Ironically because he didnt make soldier because he was deemed mentally weak to safely undergo procedure.
Rifleman Cloud vs Sephiroth isnt the only example. Hojo never managed to turn him into a full Sephiroth's "clone" despite years of experiments. Thats why Cloud is considered a reject/failure of "reunion" experiment and lacks fancy tattoo on his arm.
When game starts he may lack real sword combat experience (still has some) compared to real soldiers but has advantage of much more and longer mako exposure.

That's because Zack busts him out before the procedure is complete.

Also while it's true infantry Cloud was able to catch Sephiroth by surprise, Cloud had to level up considerably to defeat Safer-Sephiroth, no chance he would've had a sliver of a chance at the beginning of the game.

This can also attribute to why Remake Sephiroth toys with Cloud, he sees potential in him and want him to grow stronger so he can join him.

[Mako]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

That's because Zack busts him out before the procedure is complete.

Not entirely. Lots of other clones were made in much shorter time span. But its true that things could be different if Zack, who is shown to be even stronger, didnt save him.

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Cloud had to level up considerably to defeat Safer-Sephiroth, no chance he would've had a sliver of a chance at the beginning of the game.

I think that part is obvious. Safer being final boss has near godlike powers.

[Rhapsody]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

This can also attribute to why Remake Sephiroth toys with Cloud, he sees potential in him and want him to grow stronger so he can join him.

We can't yet say for sure what Sephiroth is capable of in the Remake. In most instances he's just appearing within Cloud's mind. As for when he's manipulating one of the other clones, we don't really have much at our disposal to estimate what kind of power he could hold that way, apart from very few instances like impaling some defenseless targets (Shinra, Barrett, Aerith in original) and manipulating the clones to project Jenova's illusions upon others.

If the Remake continuity's Sephiroth still follows the original, his physical body would still be stuck in Northern Crater, from where he is able to do little else than mentally manipulate his "clones" including Cloud to do his bidding. It is more likely in my mind that Sephiroth simply wants Cloud to become a useful puppet to retrieve the Black Materia, like always.

AFAIK we also cannot really say what truly happened in the great climatic battle at Northern Crater or the Planet's core, either. Sephiroth is able to cast illusions, like his "mother". Attacks like Super Nova would certainly wipe out half the star system if they actually occurred.

In Advent Children – where Sephiroth has partially merged with Lifestream and ascended to a different level of existence – he can subject Kadaj's body to his complete control and transformation, which represents him at his peak strength. This is a special case due to his new form of existence as well as unique nature of Kadaj being very much like extension of Sephiroth instead of a separate person with Jenova's genetic material.

The Whispers' aggregation at the end of first part of Remake merely represents the idea of Sephiroth and how he is "visualized" by the Planet (much in the same way as his Remnants come to exist in AC), so this indirect incarnation is also unreliable, though his appearance at the Edge of Creation is likely another illusion or mental affliction inflicted upon Cloud, just like it is in the end of original game.

We can certainly guess that Sephiroth likely has some new agenda or at least a new angle of approach, but wanting Cloud to become stronger? Not subscribing to that for now at least. You can't trust the man himself, Cloud's experiences are unreliable source for now and with the whole new metaphysical level of the plot and story, we just have to wait for more.

[Mako]

Originally posted by Rhapsody:

If the Remake continuity's Sephiroth still follows the original, his physical body would still be stuck in Northern Crater, from where he is able to do little else than mentally manipulate his "clones" including Cloud to do his bidding. It is more likely in my mind that Sephiroth simply wants Cloud to become a useful puppet to retrieve the Black Materia, like always.

This part is really different from original and you dont have to wait for Rebirth to tell this.
In original clones were drawn to Sephiroth in Nothern Crater. Sephiroth you encounter in different locations isnt a clone. Its Jenova herself under Sephiroth's full control. And definitely not an illusion.
In remake clones are drawn to Jenova just like Hojo expected (just not for the reason he expected).