Why Shinra don't deploy those 1st class "Soldiers" against Cloud?

[Diamond Girls]

All I can see are 3rd class and Reno as 2nd class.

I feel like tbh, Shinra forces are pushover or Cloud's party is just too strong.

[♔V3RD1CT]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Zero McDol:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ttv:Smokes™:

You guys need to learn your war tactics. Cloud is a top Soldier with a full dossier? on him. Shinra corp will not waste the most valuable assets on a suicide mission. They know cloud 'can' be killed, but they also know he was the partner, and ex student of the greatest warrior in the entire story.

So Shinra knows full well every mission that involves elimination will be a suicide mission, and the logical hope is one of the missions will severely injure Cloud, or get lucky. Not going to send the best into mass graves. It is not profitable either. It can be far more profitable to let your enemies to their pointless damage, use that to make them look like the enemy, and at the same time know the cost is dimes to their dozens.

It's actually modern day practice as well. More people in life seem to be convinced of the ignorant false truth their are gods among men. There are no such things. This is the concept a monopoly as powerful as Shinra believes, and stands for. A false ignorance in the factor of human social disease. lol

That's Zack. Cloud was just a normal soldier who just did his job. He never made it to first class to make a name for himself. The president doesn't even remember his name, because Cloud was never a first class soldier to being with.

Going by the OG story here. Sooo not a threat..., yet.

You could be very right. That would make sense too, because Cloud has not made a big enough stink yet. It's true entirely the only thing on Shinra's radar at this time are Avalanche. Even going so far as to cause greater devastation , and kill hundreds in the city to make Avalanche look at fault, and horrid. Also modern day games. ;.;
I went into this with the assumption Cloud is just as acknowledged. That can not be true yet.

[Zero McDol]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ttv:Smokes™:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Zero McDol:

That's Zack. Cloud was just a normal soldier who just did his job. He never made it to first class to make a name for himself. The president doesn't even remember his name, because Cloud was never a first class soldier to being with.

Going by the OG story here. Sooo not a threat..., yet.

You could be very right. That would make sense too, because Cloud has not made a big enough stink yet. It's true entirely the only thing on Shinra's radar at this time are Avalanche. Even going so far as to cause greater devastation , and kill hundreds in the city to make Avalanche look at fault, and horrid. Also modern day games. ;.;
I went into this with the assumption Cloud is just as acknowledged. That can not be true yet.

Hence, why I call it a remake+sequel. Based on what you just described, the OG story is still very much happening in this game, and since that's happening, Cloud won't become an actual threat in Shinra's eyes for quite some time.

He's start to gain some traction by act 2.

[Tr0w]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ttv:Smokes™:

You guys need to learn your war tactics. Cloud is a top Soldier with a full dossier? on him. Shinra corp will not waste the most valuable assets on a suicide mission. They know cloud 'can' be killed, but they also know he was the partner, and ex student of the greatest warrior in the entire story.

So Shinra knows full well every mission that involves elimination will be a suicide mission, and the logical hope is one of the missions will severely injure Cloud, or get lucky. Not going to send the best into mass graves. It is not profitable either. It can be far more profitable to let your enemies do their pointless damage, use that to make them look like the enemy, and at the same time know the cost is dimes to Shinra dozens. (Billions of $$$$)

It's actually modern day practice as well. More people in life seem to be convinced of the ignorant false truth there are gods among men. There are no such things. This is the concept a monopoly as powerful as Shinra believes, and stands for. A false ignorance in the factor of human social disease. lol

Nope, Cloud was a basic Shinra grunt. Why do you think none of them know who he is or laugh when he says he's a Soldier first class? The only time's he's recognised or partially recognised is by a couple of other Shinra grunts.

[Orzeker]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tr0w:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orzeker:

Well the experiment hojo did on him were pretty heavy, that's why he's so strong, never received a proper soldier training though.

Doesn't he have Zach's memories? Which probably includes the training.

It's a weird case, he has some of them for sure, but clearly not all of them otherwise he would know aerith etc ... I don't think he has any training at all, must all but instinct.

[Xengre]

Its been a while so the details are a bit fuzzy but from what I recall...

There are no 1st Class Soldiers left at Shinra so they can't send any out. There was just Zack, Angeal, Genesis who are no longer available.

As for Cloud *spoiler* he isn't one, but not because he wasn't strong enough. His physical ability was on par with the others after Mako poisoning caused by the experiments, actually, but he lacked the mental and spiritual fortitude and was susceptible to mental manipulations by Jenova cells. He was deemed not worthy by Hojo and a failure. Ironically, he was the one who defeated Sephiroth the first time while Zack had lost.

From what I understand, Cloud was a bit of a late bloomer with initially good sword technique and was able to naturally quickly copy and merge Zack's fighting style into his own and overtime progress his own combat potential and new fighting style. In a way, he is a genius in this right but his mental weaknesses held him back for a long time, even much into the story of FF7.

Of course, there will always be a strong disconnect with the overall power level of Cloud pre-FF7, early FF7, late FF7, and especially Advent Children or some scenes late FF7 remake episode 1. Devs haven't exactly been overly consistent regarding this part of him.

[Tr0w]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orzeker:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tr0w:

Doesn't he have Zach's memories? Which probably includes the training.

It's a weird case, he has some of them for sure, but clearly not all of them otherwise he would know aerith etc ... I don't think he has any training at all, must all but instinct.

The training memories must be there but deeply imbedded in his subconscious, in sort of he (like you say) instinctively can do things but doesn't really know how or why he can do them. Or it could just be his grunt training but roided out by Jenova.

Then again with no training/memories of training, or just grunt training, there's no way he would have held his own against another Soldier or Reno in a fight.

[Sogreth]

Diposting pertama kali oleh GuRu Asaki:

Sephiroth & Zack, were the 1st Class Soldiers, I think... Cloud was a Recruit, or something. Low Class?

Cloud didn't really gain 1st Class Rank, till he picked up the Buster Sword for the 1st time. Am I wrong? oO

I think there were a few others in 1st Class, who aren't mentioned in this Game, but I might be wrong...

Cloud was technically out of SOLDIER when he got the Buster sword. He was never 1st class.

The only 1st Class that were mentioned are Sepiroth, Zack, Angeal and Genesis.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tr0w:

The training memories must be there but deeply imbedded in his subconscious

He doesn't really have Zack's memories. He just THINKS he is Zack. That's why he knows nothing of Aeris, Zack's parents, etc. He just remembers times where they were both together, and he places himself where Zack is.

It was what Zack said to Cloud in his final moments (in Crisis Core), while Cloud was all f-ed up on Jenova cells, that made him all loopy and think he was Zack.

And of course, the cells made him strong.

[Tr0w]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Xengre:

Its been a while so the details are a bit fuzzy but from what I recall...

There are no 1st Class Soldiers left at Shinra so they can't send any out. There was just Zack, Angeal, Genesis who are no longer available.

As for Cloud *spoiler* he isn't one, but not because he wasn't strong enough. His physical ability was on par with the others after Mako poisoning caused by the experiments, actually, but he lacked the mental and spiritual fortitude and was susceptible to mental manipulations by Jenova cells. He was deemed not worthy by Hojo and a failure. Ironically, he was the one who defeated Sephiroth the first time while Zack had lost.

From what I understand, Cloud was a bit of a late bloomer with initially good sword technique and was able to naturally quickly copy and merge Zack's fighting style into his own and overtime progress his own combat potential and new fighting style. In a way, he is a genius in this right but his mental weaknesses held him back for a long time, even much into the story of FF7.

Of course, there will always be a strong disconnect with the overall power level of Cloud pre-FF7, early FF7, late FF7, and especially Advent Children or some scenes late FF7 remake episode 1. Devs haven't exactly been overly consistent regarding this part of him.

Sort of, he and Zach were both classified as failures by Hojo because they had a resistance (to a degree) of being controlled by Jenova, the successful ones (numbered guys) were completely under the control of Jenova and Sephiroth.

[Orzeker]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tr0w:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orzeker:

It's a weird case, he has some of them for sure, but clearly not all of them otherwise he would know aerith etc ... I don't think he has any training at all, must all but instinct.

The training memories must be there but deeply imbedded in his subconscious, in sort of he (like you say) instinctively can do things but doesn't really know how or why he can do them. Or it could just be his grunt training but roided out by Jenova.

Then again with no training/memories of training, or just grunt training, there's no way he would have held his own against another Soldier or Reno in a fight.

His experimentation was WAY more advanced than what most soldier got if I remember correctly, way more than what zack's got, hojo was trying to make a new sephiroth.
Who knows what he really imbued in cloud? his fighting may also come from the experimentation. Cloud took a long while to recover even after zack and him escaped, it was something very extreme.

[Sogreth]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orzeker:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tr0w:

The training memories must be there but deeply imbedded in his subconscious, in sort of he (like you say) instinctively can do things but doesn't really know how or why he can do them. Or it could just be his grunt training but roided out by Jenova.

Then again with no training/memories of training, or just grunt training, there's no way he would have held his own against another Soldier or Reno in a fight.

His experimentation was WAY more advanced than what most soldier got if I remember correctly, way more than what zack's got, hojo was trying to make a new sephiroth.
Who knows what he really imbued in cloud? his fighting may also come from the experimentation. Cloud took a long while to recover even after zack and him escaped, it was something very extreme.

That could have just been Zack having a better tolerance to the experiments. He takes quite a beating at the end of Crisis Core, and he's still alive for a bit. He literally gets shot in the face.

[Orzeker]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Sogreth:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orzeker:

His experimentation was WAY more advanced than what most soldier got if I remember correctly, way more than what zack's got, hojo was trying to make a new sephiroth.
Who knows what he really imbued in cloud? his fighting may also come from the experimentation. Cloud took a long while to recover even after zack and him escaped, it was something very extreme.

That could have just been Zack having a better tolerance to the experiments. He takes quite a beating at the end of Crisis Core, and he's still alive for a bit. He literally gets shot in the face.

Cloud was a blank slate at that time, zack wasn't he already went through all the standard soldier modification at that time, I don't remember hojo doing the same experiment he did on cloud to zack, may be mistaking though.
Cloud got the full on jenova treatment.

But what you're saying is a possibility if they got both the same treatment.

[♔V3RD1CT]

Yeah just mistook Cloud for higher regard. No big.
Instead of taking him for what he was. A rogue grunt no one even noticed left.
I guess I would not either with a troll running around with a sword in a futuristic gun heavy world.

A: "Hey guys you see that psychotic freak in the blue jumpsuit running around again with nothing, but a giant butter knife?"

Soldier B: "Yeah just let him keep going, who gives a hoot we got things to do."

[Zero McDol]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orzeker:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tr0w:

Doesn't he have Zach's memories? Which probably includes the training.

It's a weird case, he has some of them for sure, but clearly not all of them otherwise he would know aerith etc ... I don't think he has any training at all, must all but instinct.

Nah, hojo experimented on him after he the encounter with Sephiroth; mainly just muddling with his memories I believe. Cloud was always strong, but never more than a grunt in soldier. He did get materia injections, which was a bit different than the usual materia showering that most grunts got.

Cloud, as a kid, worked his tail off with training to one day join soldier, however when he joined, it was long after any opportunities to prove himself. Cloud also had issues that prevented him from making the cut, motion sickness being one of them.

Cloud never knew Aerith before first meeting her in Midgar. Up until then and returning to Tifa, Cloud assumed the role of a first class soldier, due to what happened to Zack after they both escaped Hojos' lab. Thanks to Cloud's issue, Cloud literally assumed and became a soldier 1st class, despite note actually being one.

Also:
Cloud does not have Zack's memories. Cloud was there during the incident and thus, remembers. Cloud and Zack escape captivity and thus, Cloud remembers. Currently Cloud refuses to face certain realities, and so his memories are a complete mess right now.


edit:
TL;DR: Cloud created an illusion based off of his time spent with Zack and Sephiroth.

[Sogreth]

Komentar ini akan dianalisis secara otomatis oleh sistem pemeriksaan konten kami. Komentar ini sementara akan disembunyikan sampai dapat dipastikan konten tersebut tidak berbahaya (contohnya seperti web yang dapat mencuri informasi).

[Zero McDol]

Actually here. A picture is worth 1,000 words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Virpv7nxY

and the Zack flashback:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PD-xq1k6MQ