Why is Chapter 12 so terrible?

[Phae]

Everything about this chapter is just painful.

Everyone forgets they have materia (like heal,ffs). The enemies are at least double the level of the previous chapter (way too much health and damage on ALL difficulties). Every character is behaving nonsensically, so every time that a scene is supposed to be dramatic, the absurdity is so overwhelming it becomes satire. What were the devs thinking?

The terrible game design choices come at you faster than the plot. This chapter is clearly meant to feel intense and emotional, but the incompetence of the designers just makes it annoying.


More specific:

Haven't finished the chapter, I'm going to keep adding to this list every time something stupid happens.

Why did no one heal Wedge or Biggs? Cloud spent minutes chatting with a seemingly dying Biggs and didn't offer anything to heal his wounds. If Biggs actually died in that scene I'm going to be f****** p*****. Why did no on heal Wedge, when they all have materia? Why did Tifa and Aerith stay with Wedge, when anyone could have given him a potion, and they could have gone on together? Did the characters forget these things exist? Where is the logic?

Why did Aerith sit and watch a Helicopter fly toward 7th Heaven for a solid minute, and whisper the word "Marlene" as if that would magically summon her from the building?

Why did Wedge try to beg the public security personnel to let them through? Wedge KNOWS their mission is to slaughter everyone in sector 7, so why would he try to argue with them instead of just shooting them in the face or punching them?

Why does Aerith pick up the little girl, and walk more slowly than she does when shopping while whispering "No need to rush". Did she actually receive brain damage? Did she forget where she is and what she's doing? Why does Aerith NOT PICK UP MARLENE? How am I supposed to feel like time is running out, if none of the characters act like it? The sky is literally falling and Aerith holds Marlene's hand and meanders out of the bar!

Reno saying "I don't know about you, but I'm done with this s***" makes me think the developers know exactly how bad this chapter is. It made me laugh really hard to hear him say that.

Then Jessie. The whole cutscene is a joke. If they cared about her, they would have healed her.

Why does Cloud stand still and look stupid while Rude separates the plates?



I could go on and on I'm sure. This game has become borderline unplayable. This one chapter and it's terrible storytelling has completely derailed the plot, and my interest in it.

[Pack 4 Potatoes]

Combat mechanis are not canon to the story. Barret and Tifa are not bullet and grenade proof and you can't heal people with materia that easily.

[Zelph]

1. As mentioned, materia doesn't magically make lethal wounds non lethal.

2. Lets assume Marlene is about 40ib. Have you ever tried to run any real distance while carrying something that weighs that much? As a guy, I have. Its not easy. Aerith is also a non muscular women. It would be VERY hard for her to move quickly while carrying Marlene.

3. Out right shooting someone doesn't help the cause. It turns you into a bad guy and justifies them shooting at you in turn. Talking things out, even in a dire situation, can lead to saving more people.

You are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things. Most of which don't make a lot of sense. Not going to go into everything because its been a while since I played, and don't want to watch stuff to catch back up.

[Weltall8000]

Also going to throw it out there that Aerith knows something(s) that others don't.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Zelph:

1. As mentioned, materia doesn't magically make lethal wounds non lethal.

2. Lets assume Marlene is about 40ib. Have you ever tried to run any real distance while carrying something that weighs that much? As a guy, I have. Its not easy. Aerith is also a non muscular women. It would be VERY hard for her to move quickly while carrying Marlene.

3. Out right shooting someone doesn't help the cause. It turns you into a bad guy and justifies them shooting at you in turn. Talking things out, even in a dire situation, can lead to saving more people.

You are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things. Most of which don't make a lot of sense. Not going to go into everything because its been a while since I played, and don't want to watch stuff to catch back up.

Responses:

1. If Biggs was so injured, then the devs should have put those injuries on his person. He had some bruises.

2. An inability to run and a lack of effort are two completely different things. I'm complaining about the latter, not the former.

3. I said shoot or punch. Push the schlub out of the way, then shoot if he retaliates.

Any other points for me to refute?

[Phae]

Originally posted by Zelph:

1. As mentioned, materia doesn't magically make lethal wounds non lethal.

2. Lets assume Marlene is about 40ib. Have you ever tried to run any real distance while carrying something that weighs that much? As a guy, I have. Its not easy. Aerith is also a non muscular women. It would be VERY hard for her to move quickly while carrying Marlene.

3. Out right shooting someone doesn't help the cause. It turns you into a bad guy and justifies them shooting at you in turn. Talking things out, even in a dire situation, can lead to saving more people.

You are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things. Most of which don't make a lot of sense. Not going to go into everything because its been a while since I played, and don't want to watch stuff to catch back up.

Also, how many bullet wounds do the characters receive because of natural combat? They all get shot, bit, slashed, and stabbed constantly and are able to heal. Clearly healing materia does all of those things and more.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Also going to throw it out there that Aerith knows something(s) that others don't.

I guess that makes sense for Aerith's surrender, but why does she not have any urgency when taking Marlene away from the danger?

Rewatch the scene where she's trying to get Marlene to safety, she wastes so much time just chatting. I get they were trying to build up a relationship between two characters, but they could have chatted while escaping.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Phae:

Originally posted by Zelph:

1. As mentioned, materia doesn't magically make lethal wounds non lethal.

2. Lets assume Marlene is about 40ib. Have you ever tried to run any real distance while carrying something that weighs that much? As a guy, I have. Its not easy. Aerith is also a non muscular women. It would be VERY hard for her to move quickly while carrying Marlene.

3. Out right shooting someone doesn't help the cause. It turns you into a bad guy and justifies them shooting at you in turn. Talking things out, even in a dire situation, can lead to saving more people.

You are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things. Most of which don't make a lot of sense. Not going to go into everything because its been a while since I played, and don't want to watch stuff to catch back up.

Responses:

Healing materia not being able to heal lethal wounds doesn't explain why no one tried to heal him. They chatted with Biggs as he wasted away for a few minutes without anyone pulling out a potion or a materia. I'd be able to excuse their inability to heal Biggs if they had tried and failed. No one tried, everyone failed; especially the developers.

1. If Biggs was so injured, then the devs should have put those injuries on his person. He had some bruises.

2. An inability to run and a lack of effort are two completely different things. I'm complaining about the latter, not the former.

3. I said shoot or punch. Push the schlub out of the way, then shoot if he retaliates.

Any other points for me to refute?

[Weltall8000]

Originally posted by Phae:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Also going to throw it out there that Aerith knows something(s) that others don't.

I guess that makes sense for Aerith's surrender, but why does she not have any urgency when taking Marlene away from the danger?

Rewatch the scene where she's trying to get Marlene to safety, she wastes so much time just chatting. I get they were trying to build up a relationship between two characters, but they could have chatted while escaping.

Because she (at least, particularly) knows the future. and she is deliberately following an outline of how things are "supposed" to go. Which includes her being captured by Shinra in exchange for Marlene's safety, which she knows is assured if she does this. She knows that they will not die right here. They are in no danger. And she knows it.

[Shock_&_Awe]

Originally posted by Phae:

Also, how many bullet wounds do the characters receive because of natural combat? They all get shot, bit, slashed, and stabbed constantly and are able to heal. Clearly healing materia does all of those things and more.

Gameplay damage doesn’t really happen.

[Pack 4 Potatoes]

Aerith had never met Marlene before. Marlene was taught not to talk to strangers. Aerith had to be kind and earn her trust before they could escape together.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Originally posted by Phae:

I guess that makes sense for Aerith's surrender, but why does she not have any urgency when taking Marlene away from the danger?

Rewatch the scene where she's trying to get Marlene to safety, she wastes so much time just chatting. I get they were trying to build up a relationship between two characters, but they could have chatted while escaping.

Because she (at least, particularly) knows the future. and she is deliberately following an outline of how things are "supposed" to go. Which includes her being captured by Shinra in exchange for Marlene's safety, which she knows is assured if she does this. She knows that they will not die right here. They are in no danger. And she knows it.

Okay, I guess that makes sense. Without that information, however, the scene is incredibly goofy to a first time observer.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Shock_&_Awe:

Originally posted by Phae:

Also, how many bullet wounds do the characters receive because of natural combat? They all get shot, bit, slashed, and stabbed constantly and are able to heal. Clearly healing materia does all of those things and more.

Gameplay damage doesn’t really happen.

Back to a previous response, the audience knows that the party has healing materia and potions on hand. Why do they not at least make an attempt to heal those wounds with materia?

It's one thing for them to attempt to heal the characters, and for the characters and the audience to realize that potions and materia won't work at the same time. It's another for them to watch a character die and do nothing about it.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Pack 4 Potatoes:

Aerith had never met Marlene before. Marlene was taught not to talk to strangers. Aerith had to be kind and earn her trust before they could escape together.

I'm more concerned about the several minutes after Marlene shows she trusts Aerith, and Aerith continues chatting with Marlene about the state of the bar instead of trying to evacuate the small child from the danger.

[Weltall8000]

Originally posted by Phae:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Because she (at least, particularly) knows the future. and she is deliberately following an outline of how things are "supposed" to go. Which includes her being captured by Shinra in exchange for Marlene's safety, which she knows is assured if she does this. She knows that they will not die right here. They are in no danger. And she knows it.

Okay, I guess that makes sense. Without that information, however, the scene is incredibly goofy to a first time observer.

It helps having played the original, then catching on to where they were going with the story this time around. I could agree, it would seem ridiculous if you were not aware of what I described.

Originally posted by Phae:

Originally posted by Shock_&_Awe:

Gameplay damage doesn’t really happen.

Back to a previous response, the audience knows that the party has healing materia and potions on hand. Why do they not at least make an attempt to heal those wounds with materia?

It's one thing for them to attempt to heal the characters, and for the characters and the audience to realize that potions and materia won't work at the same time. It's another for them to watch a character die and do nothing about it.

I've got to go with "gameplay mechanics =/= canonical plot/story." But I like it when they shore them up.

In FFVII (OG), there was a particular plot point that people, for years, clammored about why the party wasn't using familiar restorative items/spells. So, I guess that's not new.

I have heard it explained that "death" in combat is more along the lines of getting knocked out. Phoenix Downs are kinda like ammonia "smelling salts" (incidentally, the name of the revive item in Breath of Fire 3 from around the same time as OG VII), and snapping a person out of it.

In OG, it was mentioned in dialogue that, in the past, Tifa nearly died and a martial arts master used Cure on her many times and feared she wouldn't make it.

I guess I don't have too much problem with it though because, without really changing things, the game world doesn't live like materia actually exists for the most part. People aren't casting spells to do daily tasks like they would if materia really were part of the setting (like XVI does with its magic, to a much better degree). Now, they totally use domesticated Mako, and that is incorporated well, but not spell slinging from materia. IF they did act like materia really existed, I would expect the world to be very different.

Suffice to say, they needed some drama from death, so, one way or the other, it was gonna happen. Because the writers willed it.

At least they did a better job with why Reno was able to fiddle with the computer and set the bomb on the Sector 7 Pillar. Man, that bothered me in the OG version of that scene.

[Phae]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Originally posted by Phae:

Okay, I guess that makes sense. Without that information, however, the scene is incredibly goofy to a first time observer.

It helps having played the original, then catching on to where they were going with the story this time around. I could agree, it would seem ridiculous if you were not aware of what I described.

Originally posted by Phae:

Back to a previous response, the audience knows that the party has healing materia and potions on hand. Why do they not at least make an attempt to heal those wounds with materia?

It's one thing for them to attempt to heal the characters, and for the characters and the audience to realize that potions and materia won't work at the same time. It's another for them to watch a character die and do nothing about it.

I've got to go with "gameplay mechanics =/= canonical plot/story." But I like it when they shore them up.

In FFVII (OG), there was a particular plot point that people, for years, clammored about why the party wasn't using familiar restorative items/spells. So, I guess that's not new.

I have heard it explained that "death" in combat is more along the lines of getting knocked out. Phoenix Downs are kinda like ammonia "smelling salts" (incidentally, the name of the revive item in Breath of Fire 3 from around the same time as OG VII), and snapping a person out of it.

In OG, it was mentioned in dialogue that, in the past, Tifa nearly died and a martial arts master used Cure on her many times and feared she wouldn't make it.

I guess I don't have too much problem with it though because, without really changing things, the game world doesn't live like materia actually exists for the most part. People aren't casting spells to do daily tasks like they would if materia really were part of the setting (like XVI does with its magic, to a much better degree). Now, they totally use domesticated Mako, and that is incorporated well, but not spell slinging from materia. IF they did act like materia really existed, I would expect the world to be very different.

Suffice to say, they needed some drama from death, so, one way or the other, it was gonna happen. Because the writers willed it.

At least they did a better job with why Reno was able to fiddle with the computer and set the bomb on the Sector 7 Pillar. Man, that bothered me in the OG version of that scene.

We do see people using materia for daily tasks in game though. Cloud pulls out his assess materia during a cutscene in wallmarket to figure out how to use a vending machine. He also uses a healing materia to cure someone of food poisoning.