didn't play the original, ending was kinda confusing, is that why im not getting it?

[kB]

guess i'm just looking for some clarity here.

is there any insight on what the ending was about without potentially spoiling the next game?

[Weltall8000]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mako:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από mdesaleah:

Although I do wonder if the original Environmentalism message of the original would have been more impactful today than another "change fate FF13" type story. The later is fun for sure, but the former feels a lot more important.

Oh? In OG Shinra higher ups were a bunch of morons constantly doing something stupid for idiotic reasons. They were never anything more than comedic relief. Its hardly a way to portray evil corporation if your message is "evil corporations are bad".
In Remake Shinra is calculating and trully sinister. Most of the things they do make sense from where they stand. They are manipulating public opinion for their own gain.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από mdesaleah:

I know we changed fate.

But did we? The fate was already changed before. This is clearly different timeline, not just OG with whispers in it. Speaking of whispers all they really do is preserving Clouds journey. They never bothered to make Wutai lose the war, there is only ceasefire. Its pretty big difference if you ask me. Which begs the question, are they really planets will? The source of this information is Aerith but she has her own agenda. Its clear as day she wants her first boyfriend back. No, I think whispers obsession with Cloud and Cloud alone have much easier explanation. Who else is obsessed with Cloud and :making him strong through suffering? Whispers almost never appear without Sephiroth and Sephiroth almost never appears without them (except for his clones). At the end of Remake we have core party assembled, out of Midgar and set to find/stop Sephiroth. So... mission complete.

Right now I'm kinda buying into the theory that Sephiroth is trying to manipulate fate and that fate is trying to thwart him. The key is the FFVII party, with both sides (Whispers and Sephiroth) using them as the rope in a game of tug o' war. I think that Sephiroth maneuvered everything in a way that pitted the party against both sides, but (apparently) wiping out the Whispers first. The Whispers appear to be a failsafe to keep the timeline "correct" (why? Who and what is the motivation? Seems to be the planet, and there does seem to be some corroboration to this effect, but are we 100% sure? Good point to be at least cautiously suspicious). The Whispers and Sephiroth do not seem to interact directly (iirc), but are fighting indirectly via Cloud and Co. Sephiroth cant or otherwise doesn't strike them (and vice versa), but the party clobbers Sephiroth's nemesis...doing his work for him.

Now "fate" is out of his way.

Going forward, Sephiroth might have free rein to act and set things up to his liking, with the party having to now oppose Sephiroth unaided by the planet's (or whoever is responsible for the Whispers if not the planet) will.

This also appears to herald a re-altered timeline, putting us on at least a third one that we've seen.

I do wonder if Sephiroth still needs Cloud and will continue to build him up to better serve him. (Does he still need him for the Black Materia, etc.?

As for the higher ups at Shinra. They seem to be more nefarious this time around. Where as originally they struck me as primarily greedy/power hungry, and of course, as you say, morons. Rufus in OG seemed to be the only one of them that was specifically like, "I want to hurt people because it's fun and ruling through fear sounds cool." And, other than Hojo, the only one that was seemingly potentially capable at anything.

This time old man president Shinra is cunning and we're shown Shinra being much more into propaganda and information warfare (although we did see a little bit of that in OG too).

[mdesaleah]

Going into the Shinra propaganda was really good. The type of thing that the original implies but getting to see it makes them even better as villains.

[Mako]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από mdesaleah:

Eh? I don’t really see much difference between old Shinra and new Shinra.

Both are cartoonishly evil, which makes sense with the themes they are going for. It’s not like cartoonishly evil is unrealistic so it overall works well. It’s more that the Remake shows more of them, so you get to see how even more manipulative they are.

For the changing fate or not and how the whispers are inconsistent with what they change I think is just bad writing. We’ll have to see where it goes to really judge, but I think they won’t elaborate on that

On macro level they are ofc both caroonishly evil. But in OG they are constantly over the top stupid for no reason at all. Drop a plate for a small chance that your target will be crushed by it - yea, why not. In Remake they dont do it to kill someone specific, they are just interested in casualties numbers for entirely different reason.

Whispers are VERY consistent in what they change. Anything that directly threatens Clouds journey gets changed. Everything else is left as is. And there a lot of differences left, too many to list here.

[Mako]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Weltall8000:

The Whispers and Sephiroth do not seem to interact directly (iirc)

Devs already confirmed there are multiple Sephiroths in Remake. So Im building my understanding from this.
There is ofc Sephiroth that belongs to this timeline. Most likely stuck in northern crater. But we see his clones.
Another one is inside Clouds head, product of Cloud being his "clone". I think its the one we see 1st, after bridge collapse in chapter 2.
Then there is another Sephiroth, one that is closely connected with whispers. May not even be Sephiroth at all, just a form that whispers take from time to time. This is Sephiroth that acts as final boss. 1st time we see him is also in chapter 2, when whispers delay Aerith, Sephiroth appears instantly after this. Then at the end of chapter 4 when Cloud sleeps one of the whispers talks to him in Sephiroth's voice - dead giveaway if you ask me. When Cloud falls from Reactor 5 bridge to Aerith's church you see whispers saving him (plates are much higher in remake, 300 meters vs 50 meters), and then Sephiroth talks to Cloud - another direct interaction. There are more, I wont list everything but in final boss battle Sephiroth dissolves into nothing else but whispers. Boss fight with "fate" itself also heavily implies connection to Sephiroth, because 3 big whispers you fight correspond to Sephiroth's remnants from AC.

[Weltall8000]

Re Mako #51, I don't rule out that the Whispers could take on the guise of Sephiroth (or vica versa), but if Sephiroth and Whispers are not at odds and one or the other is in control or they are one entity, or otherwise on the same side...I don't see why they would bother doing all of this.

The Whispers already apparently have the power to produce singularity events (and have done so at least twice that we know about) to massively intervene and alter time. If Sephiroth had control of that power, it seems like he either has control of the Lifestream (assuming the Whispers are agents of the planet) or could easily acquire it (assuming the Whispers aren't the extension of the planet's will). And why set up Cloud to beat down powerful tools of his?

Just seems to fit better that he is opposed to them and they are an obstacle he uniquely can't defeat directly for whatever reason.

[Weltall8000]

That IS a good point about the 3 remnants. The Compilation I didn't follow as closely as OG.

[Mako]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Weltall8000:

Re Mako #51, I don't rule out that the Whispers could take on the guise of Sephiroth (or vica versa), but if Sephiroth and Whispers are not at odds and one or the other is in control or they are one entity, or otherwise on the same side...I don't see why they would bother doing all of this.

The Whispers already apparently have the power to produce singularity events (and have done so at least twice that we know about) to massively intervene and alter time. If Sephiroth had control of that power, it seems like he either has control of the Lifestream (assuming the Whispers are agents of the planet) or could easily acquire it (assuming the Whispers aren't the extension of the planet's will). And why set up Cloud to beat down powerful tools of his?

Just seems to fit better that he is opposed to them and they are an obstacle he uniquely can't defeat directly for whatever reason.

He probably doesnt have full control but he clearly has some. This partial control over lifestream alligns with his power level in AC and is a direct result of Meteor having only partial effect.
The only direct source that its all planet's will is Aerith and I dont consider her reliable. She clearly hides something. In fact its a bit strange for her as last ancient to be against planets will. I think she's selfish and ready to risk everything for Zack.

At first Sephiroth simply mocks Cloud when he says he wants to save the planet because Cloud's bad memories will die with it. But he still needs Cloud for something, most likely to prolong his own existence, and he's very clear about it, I dont think he was lying there.
The planet is doomed. Bugenhagen says this plainly and clearly in OG. Even with all reactors gone and no meteor planet will soon (by planetary standards at least, a few centuries instead of billions of years) die. And since Sephiroth is now trapped in lifestream he has every reason to delay this moment.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Weltall8000:

And why set up Cloud to beat down powerful tools of his?

Who said Cloud actually beat it down? Simplified version of how I see it:
Sephiroth opened portal for Cloud into a "training room" (note how all this destruction inside "singularity" has no effect on outside world). "Big bad" is down, Cloud gets a lot of XP and levels up.
Sephi-whisper appears (note how he still has control over whispers after you've beaten previous big bad, maybe he now has even more?). Cloud beats him too, gets even more XP.
Then Sephiroth that actually pulls the strings asks Cloud to join. Cloud refuses, Sephiroth tests his skill, easily deflects every blow of Omnislash. Says he's still too weak and needs more XP. Disappears without elaborating more.

[Weltall8000]

Interesting theory. But I don't buy it. I am not sold on him controlling the Whispers and through the events of the game it looks to the audience that have a further back vantage point, that Seph and W are pushing and pulling opposite directions. Where Seph tries to change OG events and W try to maintain.

Fair (nyuk nyuk) if Aerith isn't necessarily a reliable narrator, but she says this and it seems to be corroborated, even if not outright proven. I do find you line of reasoning that she is sandbagging the planet/whoever else for bringing back her lost love to be interesting. Even if unconvincing.

Seph needs Cloud? At least through part 1, I strongly agree that is almost certainly the case. I could see that perhaps continuing for the aforementioned reason and/or other as of yet to be determined use.

Planet is doomed? OG's original ending casts a shadow of doubt on that with the 500 years later epilogue.

[Weltall8000]

Edit section, setting aside whether or not he controls Whispers as discussed earlier, why now are the timelines changed again?

[Mako]

The only time when whispers directly intervened with Sephiroth's action was when he stabbed Barret. But that was a clone.
Other than that what Sephiroth does that needs changing by whispers? He is very much interested in preserving Cloud's journey. This is why he says things like "there is so much to be done" after saving him from 300m fall or "through suffering you will become stronger" after plate fall. This is what its all about, evidently whispers dont give a flying pickle about anything else.
You can clearly see lots of scenes directly connecting Sephiroth to whispers. The only question is how many he controls, some or all of them. If thats not enough even one-winged angel music theme changes to whispers theme at phase 4 when he absorbs some of them to power up and cast meteor.
IMO there are only 2 possibilities. Either Sephi-whisper isnt Sephiroth at all and is literally just 2nd phase of arbiter of fate. Or Sephi-whisper is a time-travelling Sephiroth who somehow managed to tap into arbiters power (who is time traveller according to in-game battle intel) and at least partially steal it by poisoning lifestream from within.

Doesnt look like anything is changed in main remake timeline after final battle. There is now another timeline in which Zack lived. In this timeline Stamp is a different breed. Dont ask me why. Beating down "fate" probably has its effects.

[Mako]

If you're commenting on "Doesnt look like anything is changed in main remake timeline after final battle." I didnt mean compared to OG. I meant compared to what was right before that battle in remake. End scenes of remake show 2 separate timelines. Nothing has changed for our main party (except possibly no more whispers but its not 100%). Everything that whispers already did still has effect on their timeline. But there is another in which whispers never existed at all, in it Zack, Biggs and many others are alive.

[Namethatworks]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ness:

I see--yes well the comment still stands that people who are pretending the plot of "remake" before Ch. 18 is consistent with FF7 are objectively wrong. And there appear to be many of those.

IMO the best thing SE could do at this point is abandon FF7, stop with the milking and exploitation of a 20+ year old game, and devote all of those resources to making FF16 an awesome story that is meaningful and rekindles the heritage of the Final Fantasy series. Given all of their decisions of late including forays into controversial technologies, that seems incredibly doubtful.

They arn't milking it there would have to be a yearly release like COD does for that to be a thing. With just new assets and no new story.

The new number entry is still coming out and looks fantastic.

Just because you don't like what their doing doesn't mean it isn't a good thing.

Bringing people new to the older games is objectively a good thing as they can always still play OG FF7 to get the full story/watch a playthrough.

This way new and returning players can see something new & exciting rather than retreadeding a old story they are going new directions. The world is more fleshed out in its entirety so far.

Milking would be a by the numbers remake. Which would have made almost no money with the shallow turn based combat OG FF7 had. Which is also what you want?

And Wutai always was a threat prior to even Crisis Core. Wutai was at war with Shinra.

[Krypto]

I wonder how long before Ness grows tired of repeating the same original good, remake bad spiel.

[Namethatworks]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ness:

In the events of FF7 Wutai was a defeated nation, turned into a tourist destination, as prior to the game's events rebellions were quelled repeatedly by Shinra and the war was past. Did you play FF7 and understand its plot?

Interesting--to me, a mobile gacha game retelling parts of the plot and that hides weapons behind loot boxes, a short-lived battle royale game, amidst all the other gacha mobile games using FF7 characters--to me that pretty clearly constitutes the concept of "milking" a franchise and fan base. And that is not including the continued spin-offs and "requels" (a fun new term in gaming created by this ground-breaking "remake" that actually isn't a remake).

"Objectively a good thing?" Objective is a matter of fact, but you're stating an opinion. You are misusing that word.

My opinion is that it is much worse to bring a fake, distorted fan fiction version of a classic to new players and misrepresent what it was and what it means. For new players to think that this "remake" is representing FF7 and its story is much worse than FF7 just fading into obscurity as a cult classic or being appreciated in retrospect.

The mystery of Cloud's backstory with Shinra and Sephiroth, destroyed by one contrived scene in an alley with "cool flames" surrounding them, and dialogue that undermines and contradicts the most significant plot mystery of the narrative. In FF7 Cloud does not and cannot consciously know at that time that he seemingly killed Sephiroth at Nibelheim.

The purpose of sacrifices and loss, and the facing of death and the continuation of aspirations and dreams through those after them--destroyed by bringing back whatever we want to bring back because Destiny and Fate and Whispers.

The oppressive atmosphere in the slums and the complete lack of sunlight due to the plate high above---destroyed by this new boring, copy paste junkyard Midgar with lots of good times, sunlight, and sky. Barrett's backstory reinforcing the environmental themes of FF7 undermined by his new one-dimensional character. The character arcs in FF7 were gradually revealed instead of summed up, erased, or retconned.

A narrative that was efficient and tight being undermined by absolutely pointless filler side quests and side stories about random NPCs, like Don Corneo's bodyguard getting a long, boring backtracking sewer quest that matters not an iota to the story---when he had one line in the original game and didn't even have a name. That empty diversion could not be any more obviously inserted to waste time and pad the runtime.

New over-the-top anime characters like Roche who add nothing to the plot or development of the themes and arcs or meaning. You can go on and on.

In today's culture we seem to think we can rewrite the past to our present fancy. This game is empty and lacks the character arcs, significance, messages, and themes of the original. If you like it, that's fine, but pretending that this game is FF7 or understands or respects what it is about, and what its authors intended for it to be about in 1997--to operate under that pretense is unfortunate.

It by definition isn't fan fiction Square owns Final Fantasy they can do what they want with it.

Yes, it's an objectively good thing. As I said this drives purchases of the original as well as this how Isn't that a good thing? Companies exist to make money, not to appeal solely to you.

It doesn't eliminate the original. You are part of the vocal minority most of all the Final Fantasy fan group agree this is a good game. Look here, the various Final Fantasy subreddits, look at the discord servers.

If you're going to say those aren't the community then who are? Just you?

[Namethatworks]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Darkwalker:

I wonder how long before Ness grows tired of repeating the same original good, remake bad spiel.

Idk they use a level 0 hidden account their credibility is quite small. Looks like a spam troll account.

Which makes alot of sense why else be such a contrarian.