Mystery Box Story Trap

[mdesaleah]

This method of story isnt a new thing, but its surprising how easy new and old fans can be tricked by it even after the initial release period is done.

A more recent example of a popular series doing this is Star Wars. Where the three recent movies had no story plan, but used a lot of teases and mystery to make it seem like there was a plan initially. Until it all comes crashing down in the end.

Same thing will happen with the 7 Remake/Sequel series too. The meta-story of the first part is already a massive deviation that confirm this series to be a sequel to the original with many many changes.

But do we REALLY think they have all 3 parts planned? Especially with all the new aspects being added for the sake of having new twists like timelines, and fate changing. Keep people guessing that the story is really going somewhere when the writers are only doing it for a hype train for an ending that hasnt been decided yet.

[Weltall8000]

I suspect that they have a plan for the story arc. I am not so sure the changes are for the sake of being changes.

But, at this point, it looks like there is intentionality with multiple visible/major changes. With subtle changes slipped in that also look like they must have been done with purpose.

Could it be this trap? Perhaps. We have seen the FF franchise change gears significantly mid development on other titles. I doubt they'd do that on this particular VII project, but I suppose it isn't outside the realm of possibility. Just not much to go on at this point to confirming this theory.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Ness:

I don't think any of the FF7 fans who were disappointed by this new "meta-narrative" think they have this whole thing planned out (or care if they do?)...............

I think you overestimate just how many fans of something that isnt finished yet will assume that there has always been a plan from the start.

I was actually going to mention Kingdom Hearts as an example of throwing things at the wall. But with that series, I'm fine with weirdly enough since its always been like that from the start. They always made it clear that they are rolling with it and connecting things as they want second. Like how 2 (technically the third game) already massively retconned the first game to have a cool new villain. So KH as a series always threw whatever concept looks neat.

But the reason its really a problem with FF7 really was the false advertising. If it was just called FF7-2 or something, then it would have definitely sold less, but it would have been more truthful. And yeah, they are probably taking fan reception into strong consideration with where its going. Like determining how much Zack/Crisis Core gets shown moving forward.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Ness:

Yes it would have sold less indeed. Which is why they lied.

Imagine if they actually make an FFX or FFIX remake like is being rumored, and imagine if they change the plots of those, like they did with this one. Haha, oh man, that will be entertaining, won't it? At this point I don't care if they continue to destroy their legacies. The only interesting part of SE now to me is seeing just how far they are going to go with milking their titles from 20+ years ago. Maybe a Final Fantasy X NFT-based game where you get to rewrite the plot yourself with every NFT in-game transaction?! The possibilities are limitless!

The less you know about the FFX-3 audio drama, the better.

But also them lying about the a remake being a remake of the original is a trick that only works once. It could even backfire on them somewhat since now if they announce any kind of remake, you'll always have a doubt if they are telling the truth or making a sequel in disguise.

Although a 7 sequel that was a sequel would just be ignorable. But having a full remake almost happen, but then turned out to not be that and with added unecessary mystery tropes added on top for theory making just makes it annoying.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Ness:

Yes, next time they will need to be up front about the retconned requeling, unless they find a new way to c l e v e r l y s u b v e r t e x p e c t a t i o n s.

Subverting expectations is so hard to do right. And even then theres a big risk.

MGS2 is the obvious example of one done in a popular game. But in that case everything, including the initial marketing fits well with the subversion since that game is about manipulating information. But even then, it wasnt really accepted overall until years later since even though the trick is done well, it is still a trick.

The FF7 Remake/Sequel Part 1 has the "defying fate" subversion, but it comes off as meta for the sake of it? Like they did it, now what? Its a new story, one thats not as well told and misses the chance of just being the original story with slight changes for new people who havent played the original.

[Yew Nough]

One of the dudes who wrote for Parasite Eve: The 3rd Birthday co-directed this game.

The story for that game was not only a mess (about time travel and changing the past/future), but it had nothing to do with the original two games: Theme or story-wise.

...just a word of caution.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Yew Nough:

One of the dudes who wrote for Parasite Eve: The 3rd Birthday co-directed this game.

The story for that game was not only a mess (about time travel and changing the past/future), but it had nothing to do with the original two games: Theme or story-wise.

...just a word of caution.

I got a lot of FF13 out of FF7R's fate/sequel twist. Seems like an idea that Square really likes using, even if it doesnt fit the source well.

Although yeah, Parasite Eve 3 was really bad. 7R definitely did the characters well when it wasnt trying to do a sequel twist (so ignoring Sephiroth and Aerith when she's teasing the future). Thats more than PE3 can say.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Ness:

At last! We know what happened now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvfPd-wCwPw

Eh, wouldn’t blame Nomura since he wasn’t the writer and apparently was telling them to be MORE like the original instead of the original idea where it was even more crazy.

What people assume is “Nomura writing” most of the time is just Square Enix writing

[mdesaleah]

I wouldnt say Nomura choosing to avoid the dramatic changes until the very end as a good or bad thing, just that he wasnt the main writer.

That does show that Square Enix as a whole probably had no idea of what an FF7 Remake should be, which is why a suggestion like that or the FF7 Rebirth dev statements both backtrack on the twist in interviews, while also clearly going even harder with them.

So it just fits my prediction that they had and still dont have a concrete plan. Although now that they know its 3 parts (it wasnt even decided on from the start), they probably at least have an outline. But that outline can also change depending on reception to things like Crisis Core Reunion.

[Mako]

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

But do we REALLY think they have all 3 parts planned? Especially with all the new aspects being added for the sake of having new twists like timelines, and fate changing. Keep people guessing that the story is really going somewhere when the writers are only doing it for a hype train for an ending that hasnt been decided yet.

For me its kinda obvious that they had an outline for the whole story from the beginning but its not set in stone and will inevitably change during development. And large time gaps between releases will only magnify that difference between original plan and final result. This is how development works in general. If instead of making 3 parts they would have done 1 big game in 10 years then Midgar part could be very different from what we've got now. It would have been in flux all that time, but now its set in stone because its released material.

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

What people assume is “Nomura writing” most of the time is just Square Enix writing

Its not "just SE writting". FF7 Remake has XIII trilogy written all over it which makes sense considering its being developed by mostly the same team. 15 is very different from this. Other SE franchises like Drakenguard/Nier are also very different from this. There are more examples but those 2 in particular are interesting because they too have multiverses embedded in them but in a much less prominent way. In particular Drakenguard/Nier games have multiple contradicting endings but all of them are canon. Sometimes different endings lead to different sequels. And original Nier even has 2 versions, both canon (but only one of them leads to Automata so its "more canon" and thats the one they've decided to remaster). Yoko Taro in multiple interviews gave explanation why he does this. The idea is that particular chain of events, aka story, doesnt actually matter, its just a means to an end - provoking emotional response. Its kinda obvious in a sense, that the story is just a tool, but often overlooked or forgotten. Its not the same though process as throwing stuff and seeing what sticks because he starts at the end goal and then moves backwards. Then he may end up with different seemingly contradicting each other things, but they all lead to the same goal. I can see some traces of this approach in this Remake but its too early to tell if this was a deliberate choice or just a coincidence.

BTW lots of popular japanese games have multiverses. Often players dont even realize this. Zelda games form a multiverse with different timelines. Dark Souls and other fromsoft games have multiverses. this is how they explain online features, but its also written into the lore of those games. And FF series itself was always toying with multiverse and cycle ideas. So its introduction to FF7 isnt much of a shoker even if particular execution could have been done better.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Mako:

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

But do we REALLY think they have all 3 parts planned? Especially with all the new aspects being added for the sake of having new twists like timelines, and fate changing. Keep people guessing that the story is really going somewhere when the writers are only doing it for a hype train for an ending that hasnt been decided yet.

For me its kinda obvious that they had an outline for the whole story from the beginning but its not set in stone and will inevitably change during development. And large time gaps between releases will only magnify that difference between original plan and final result. This is how development works in general. If instead of making 3 parts they would have done 1 big game in 10 years then Midgar part could be very different from what we've got now. It would have been in flux all that time, but now its set in stone because its released material.

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

What people assume is “Nomura writing” most of the time is just Square Enix writing

Its not "just SE writting". FF7 Remake has XIII trilogy written all over it which makes sense considering its being developed by mostly the same team. 15 is very different from this. Other SE franchises like Drakenguard/Nier are also very different from this. There are more examples but those 2 in particular are interesting because they too have multiverses embedded in them but in a much less prominent way. In particular Drakenguard/Nier games have multiple contradicting endings but all of them are canon. Sometimes different endings lead to different sequels. And original Nier even has 2 versions, both canon (but only one of them leads to Automata so its "more canon" and thats the one they've decided to remaster). Yoko Taro in multiple interviews gave explanation why he does this. The idea is that particular chain of events, aka story, doesnt actually matter, its just a means to an end - provoking emotional response. Its kinda obvious in a sense, that the story is just a tool, but often overlooked or forgotten. Its not the same though process as throwing stuff and seeing what sticks because he starts at the end goal and then moves backwards. Then he may end up with different seemingly contradicting each other things, but they all lead to the same goal. I can see some traces of this approach in this Remake but its too early to tell if this was a deliberate choice or just a coincidence.

BTW lots of popular japanese games have multiverses. Often players dont even realize this. Zelda games form a multiverse with different timelines. Dark Souls and other fromsoft games have multiverses. this is how they explain online features, but its also written into the lore of those games. And FF series itself was always toying with multiverse and cycle ideas. So its introduction to FF7 isnt much of a shoker even if particular execution could have been done better.

Yeah, "Square Enix writing" wasnt the best description to use since theres so many different teams, but there is definitely some team at Square that loves using defying fate and that type of twist writing first/make sense later approach. FF13 was the one I thought of first.

Nier/Drakengard I actually forgot was Square since I associate it more with just Yoko Taro. Those games are also crazy, but they are better written with their ideas. Its hard to explain but they each have a theme and something to say and that is clear even with the stories being complex. You don't have to understand every little detail to get a good message or idea out of those.

In terms of "Changing Fate" but done well, Legacy of Kain is a great example. Very well written with its dialogue, probably the most well written game series period. Especially when handling the tricky topic of timelines and destiny. Square even owned the rights to that series for a while but they did nothing with it and now they don't own the series anymore.