I recently went back to play the original FF7 and came to a realization:

[Krystal]

WARNING! THIS POST IS GOING TO BE LONG as it entails my detailed thoughts on playing through both the remake and the original FF7 be prepared to pack a lunch for this post. XD

So having beat this game and left my review which was mostly positive I decided to go back and play the OG FF7, the game that bore many final fantasy fans.

Almost immediately i noticed something felt different when starting up the original FF7, while Remake was action-packed from the beginning, FF7 felt more traditional almost natural in from the opening scene jumping off the train gave me that rush of excitement that Remake didn't give me.

I couldn't quite figure out why, at first I thought it was nostalgia for the original but the more I played the more it became clear...

The remake was missing something, something the original FF7 had from its opening moments but I couldn't quite pin on what the original FF7 had that Remake somehow lacked.

So I kept playing, now one thing I will say is that the Remake did a good job clarifying some storybeats the original FF7 left vague but somehow, that didn't bother me in the slightest, in fact when i got to certain points in FF7's story my mind immediately shot back to filler content or the crapton of sidequests the game would throw at me at certain points and i found myself oddly feeling happy they were missing yet I couldn't figure out why. I mean, sidequests are a staple of RPGs so why would I be glad to have them absent?

I wouldn't be until much later that I would get my answer to this question but for now I was back at the point in the game where Remake had ended... Yep, I was in Shinra HQ coming to rescue Aries. However, unlike in Remake where things felt like they fell apart plotwise, the game continued as normal and before i knew it, i was there, I was at the point where Remake had ended except there was no anti-climatic Sephiroth fight, just the wide open world of FF7 to explore.

It was at this point I realized one vital thing was missing from the Remake that this version had: A sense of exploration. But that wasn't the only vital thing that Remake was missing I realized as I kept playing, several scenes where Cloud's unstable mind and how they were handled.

Looking back at remake, Cloud always acted like he was suffering from a headache and yet nothing really came of these scenes unless included some kind of future sight flashback of the future of the game's plot.

In the original FF7 everytime cloud suffered from these headaches the astute player would realize the headache, the static sounds, the flashing effect, followed by him suddenly resuming his confident demeanor, something was VERY OFF about him yet we couldn't quite figure it out yet.

In Remake, it was almost as if he behaved like a PTSD victim with his vivid psychotic episodes where he saw stuff that wasn't really there. He also behaved VERY HOMICIDALLY in remake, like he was willing to kill 3 different people and if Tifa hadn't stopped him, he would have. The subtle unstable nature was thrown away in favor of a damn near sociopathic character.

In other words: The cloud we knew from FF7 is not the same Cloud in the Remake. This was the second vital thing missing from the Remake that FF7 had.

And finally, the last thing the original FF7 had that remake was missing, sidequests that felt like real sidequests. In remake, the sidequests felt painfully simple and lackluster, almost no depth to them at all. In the original FF7 they aren't straightforward at all and they're just there, for you to complete if you want.

In Remake however, they are slapped in your face so hard that it feels as if the game is BEGGING YOU to complete them. I realized when playing the original FF7 that i missed this subtle nature of sidequests.

So in summation,

The Remake lacked a sense of exploration, Cloud's original character, and sidequests that felt subtle and natural to pursue. This in combination with its plot related retconning made me realize that the original FF7 has something that Remake will never have:

A soul, something that made the game feel alive and fills players would a sense of excitement from the moment they jump off the train. Something they can't get from Remake because the action-based combat immediately steals away the sense of excitement and wonderment you get from the very first "whoosh" of the battle transition.

Remake is a good game don't get me wrong but after playing the OG FF7 again, i feel as if they should of not have titled it Final Fantasy 7 Remake as by doing so, does a disservice to the original. Perhaps a more proper title would be:

Final Fantasy VII: Destiny's Crossroads

Since the entire theme of Remake seems to be defying destiny, I feel as though this game could be a great spinoff title to FF7 a giant "What if!" storyline if you will.

By branding it as the "original FF7" being "Remade", the devs will do little more than piss off OG fans with each episode they release unless they "retcon" Remake in their next episode and follow the original plot.

[Turtle / Eli]

Great points, though I'd wait till they release the last 2 games and then determine whether the original or remakes are better....

[Tr0w]

^ FF8 and 15 sold very well as well (the closest to 7) yet FF "fans" always say they're the worst games ever made.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

I like FF8 overall, though the pacing is not great, and it had a big act to follow in FF7. Playing FF8 years later is a better experience because you can treat it as its own game and not compare its story, characters, or pacing to FF7.

I did not play FF15 because I did not like what FF13 was about, and my understanding is it's a spiritual successor to FF13. I have watched some footage of FF15 and read about it, though.

I think anyone saying those two games are "the worst games ever made" is making a silly statement. Again I think it's fine to like FF13, FF15, etc. What is unfortunate is this whole situation of what they are doing to a classic instead of making something new.

8 and 15 are actually two of my favourites in the franchise, and nah 15 is nothing like 13. 15 is an open world Action RPG. As you haven't played it, i'd recommend picking it up before the sale is over as it;s well worth w/e it;s discounted price will be. My recommendation with it though would be to look up a timeline of when the DLCs take place and pause the main game to play those then go back to the main game. They were cut content and the main game suffers from them having to be accessed outside of the main game.

The Ardyn DLC should be played after you beat the game though as it's full of spoilers.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

It's the story and characters of FF15 in particular that I do not have interest in based on what I know about it. The style of characters and their personalities and presentation shifted dramatically after FF12. I do appreciate that at least they have returned to open world in FF15, though I'm not necessarily opposed to non-open-world FF games. FFX is really good.

One of the characters will surprise you, his DLC and what happens to him ended up making him one of may favourite supporting characters in the entire franchise. Also in terms of sheer spectacle it's currently the best in the franchise imho, 7R is close and 16 may beat it going by the trailers but for now some of the stuff in 15 is unreal.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

Yeah, I don't mean the story as much as the characters. Character design is a huge element of FFs, and I find the over-the-top characters like in FF13 to be deal-breakers for being able to play and enjoy the game. Rikku in FFX was already IMO starting with that annoying character style. I also did not like Yuffie in FFVII on PSX, and did not add her to the party beyond recruitment. I think she wasn't really a principal character in the plot for a reason--the strongest supporting characters, Tifa, Barrett, Aeris, Nanaki, were already introduced meaningfully at the start. Cid, Vincent, and Cait Sith were much more interesting characters than Yuffie IMO, and FF7 could have done a little more with the latter two. I'm not saying someone is wrong to like Rikku or Yuffie if that's your thing, but I don't like them.

Re: FFXV I do think the idea of "bros on a road trip" is a somewhat interesting take on an RPG opener, but also it sounds potentially pretty bland as a premise. . .though I understand that's of course not the entirety of the narrative. I also don't play FF games to simulate some sort of real life experience like being on a road trip with the bros. Tokyo culture has a lot of different elements. The FF character design shifted pretty dramatically after FF12 toward a different kind of culture than was present in the early FFs. For me and I imagine for a lot of FF fans from the older games, those new characters in FF13 and beyond and their personalities were one of the main reasons new FF games stopped appealing to us.

Well the whole bros on a road trip thing is very misleading, they are friends yes but Noctis is the Crown Prince and the other three guys are his bodyguards tasked with getting him away from the city while it's being invaded, also they aren't over the top like in 13.

[Tr0w]

^ Also if you do pick it up, watch the CGI movie Kingsglaive before playing it.

[Weltall8000]

I played XV once and didn't like it. I think that I "played it wrong." And may not have given it a fair chance. Also, my PC at the time sucked, so, performance issues plagued the experience.

I didn't love the characters, but I think your reasons for dismissing them make sense why one might think that about them before playing...but is pretty far from the mark when you actually go on their journey. Given what I think I know about you from our exchanges, I think you might actually jive with the supporting cast once those initial impressions face what these guys really are when their layers start getting peeled. There is a lot under the surface.

One other thing, there is a lot of supplemental content surrounding this game, a movie, a mini series, and even a novel to finish off the incomplete story. The movie and series are intentionally to be watched before the game.

I didn't play DLC Arden, but did pick it up in this sale. After a few other games, I am going to try giving XV another, hopefully proper go.

[Turtle / Eli]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

I like FF8 overall, though the pacing is not great, and it had a big act to follow in FF7. Playing FF8 years later is a better experience because you can treat it as its own game and not compare its story, characters, or pacing to FF7.

I did not play FF15 because I did not like what FF13 was about, and my understanding is it's a spiritual successor to FF13. I have watched some footage of FF15 and read about it, though.

I think anyone saying those two games are "the worst games ever made" is making a silly statement. Again I think it's fine to like FF13, FF15, etc. What is unfortunate is this whole situation of what they are doing to a classic instead of making something new.

Since you mentioned 13 and 15, I feel as though some of the Nova Crystallis were the most disappointing games in the Final Fantasy franchise. What I liked about the 13 games were the visuals, music, and voice acting. My dislike about the trilogy of 13 was the games felt grindy, rushed, long. Wasn't a fan of the timer in Lightning Returns as I'm someone that prefers to play at a slower pace without hurrying to complete the game. When it comes to 15, I liked the core characters themselves, the world was fun to explore, combat was ok. My negatives of 15 were the story, repetitive nature of side quests, magic system kinda sucks ass, and the camera being annoying at times to control. If I had to pick a game out of the 4, I guess the first game in the 13 trilogy?

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

I played XV once and didn't like it. I think that I "played it wrong." And may not have given it a fair chance. Also, my PC at the time sucked, so, performance issues plagued the experience.

I didn't love the characters, but I think your reasons for dismissing them make sense why one might think that about them before playing...but is pretty far from the mark when you actually go on their journey. Given what I think I know about you from our exchanges, I think you might actually jive with the supporting cast once those initial impressions face what these guys really are when their layers start getting peeled. There is a lot under the surface.

One other thing, there is a lot of supplemental content surrounding this game, a movie, a mini series, and even a novel to finish off the incomplete story. The movie and series are intentionally to be watched before the game.

I didn't play DLC Arden, but did pick it up in this sale. After a few other games, I am going to try giving XV another, hopefully proper go.

Well the PC version was ♥♥♥♥♥♥ at launch much like every other Square release on PC. It's mostly fine now though as they actually patched it unlike 7R and Star Ocean 6.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

Though, I think we are skirting around a major problem with modern JRPGs. In the classics on SNES, PSX, and PS2, dialogue was limited to the core and most essential components of storytelling. Your imagination filled in the rest. With JRPGs now becoming much more like theatrical movies, there is so much opportunity for them to force their vision upon you and introduce bad script writing, bad plot writing, bad character design elements.

Why those classic games are so magical is in large part because of the activation of your imagination. I am someone who much prefers reading to simply idly watching movies. I believe a lot of the fans of the original FF games are also people who love reading. These games, even if they happen to be done to your satisfaction as the gamer/viewer, stifle the imagination and give you far too much visual and other information constantly. It's again why I feel what they are doing to FF7 is quite unfortunate. They are turning a brilliantly and carefully executed narrative experience (that is really more like a theatrical play than a movie) into a strange modern Square Enix movie.

At least, though, no matter how many bizarre "remakes" they decide to produce of their classics, we will always have the originals. Nothing can take away the brilliance of FF7 on PSX or Chrono Trigger on SNES and what those milestones in gaming accomplished to further the video game genre as something closer to art than simply entertainment.

For me it really depends when it comes to old snes stuff, i recently played FF 1, 2, 3, 4, and part of 5 and found the writing and dialogue, etc, to be pretty amateurish and childish compared to what we got later in 6, 7, 8 and so on. The first time a game got me hooked on it's writing though was when i first played Baldur's Gate on PC.

[Weltall8000]

Well the PC version was ♥♥♥♥♥♥ at launch much like every other Square release on PC. It's mostly fine now though as they actually patched it unlike 7R and Star Ocean 6.

Well that is heartening to hear! I truly do hope that I will have a more enjoyable experience with it next time around. It has so much in it, sometimes it takes me a while to take on some games.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

Never really got into Baldur's Gate, but gave it a try back in the day. Was more a fan of Blizzard's Diablo series at that time if we're talking that sort of genre. I would agree that FF1-3 on NES are basic, as they were clearly figuring out their creative process, and of course hardware was limited. For the time they were pretty outstanding RPGs. FFIV is not amateur or childish at all in its themes, so I would not group it with those first three entries. It's about duality and self actualization, and it covers some pretty core western and eastern philosophy concepts. FFIV/Cecil's story is really the first great FF IMO--though it is of course less complex of a game overall than FF6. Again, keep in mind that they were improving their process every game and were in many ways creating the JRPG genre in the process, though there were other studios working concurrently worth noting. As far as the SNES goes, Chrono Trigger is the most impressive JRPG game produced on that system by a mile, IMO.

FF5 is okay, IMO. Not the greatest story or characters overall. FF6 is a great game, and I look at it a bit like Witcher 2--very good in many ways, but it's the lead-up to their greatest in that era, FF7, as Witcher 3 is really CDPR's pinnacle of their process and figuring out how to make a great story and experience. Not the best analogy because I think FF6 is a better game and story than Witcher 2 was, but they both led in to the "pinnacle" of their respective studios' era.

FF9 imo is an interesting one because on one hand it feels very underrated based on not being talked about much, but then on the other there does seem to be a lot of love for it. It just doesn't seem to get the same treatment as FF6 or FF7 for some reason, but I thought it was excellent. Could be because some of the characters were a bit weak and underutilized.

Baldur's Gate and Diablo are in different subgenres and very different games. Baldur's Gate is party based and has a world map with many locations you can travel to and from, dialogue options, skill checks, etc. It basically plays like Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny, and Pathfinder as those games were inspired by BG. Or like Fallout, Wasteland, and Divinity OS but real-time with pause combat instead of turnbased.

[Idbuddy]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

I don't recall him talking about that as the main problem. That's really missing the forest for the trees here. He's explaining his opinion that the storytelling and cohesion in this version is poor overall by comparison to a quality novel or to FFVII on PSX, with many examples.

This sounds like justifying changes to make more sense of poor writing. And it's a dramatic departure from the original.

Look, FF7 on PSX isn't a perfect story. The point is that this one, the "remake," is worse as a narrative. Why are they dismantling and remaking it, meddling with the characters' ethos and motives and turning them into anime and KH-style mouthpieces for a new plot, if what you're going to create is as a story, worse than the original? Their whole goal is to make something better than the original, or else I don't understand what their goal is with this over-ambitious complete remix of a classic story.

It's clear that what they have done is basically divorce themselves from the influence Sakaguchi had on the way the narrative was told, and they are using Aerith and Sephiroth as the mouthpieces and actors by which they accomplish that divorcing and dismantling. Now that they have by Ch. 18 untethered a classic story's characters, they are going to write them into a new modern Square Enix style game. And they've already begun that process.

I think that much is not debatable. That is evidently what they have done. Look up interviews that explain the disagreements over the original story during FF7 on PSX's development, and articles about how the changes to FF7 "remake" were designed, etc. They all have different visions it seems. And now we know whose visions are in the front seat.

What IS debatable is whether you are happy about that change and why. For those of us who really only like FF games that were made when Sakaguchi was at Square, then we are obviously not happy with that change. For those who like FF games from FF13 and on then they are quite likely happy with this change. There are probably some folks in between, but I wager this is a major divide in the audience.

What is unfortunate from the perspective of the first group of FF fans is the amount of apparent gaslighting not only by Square Enix themselves but by a number of fans who pretend like these changes are not achieving these ends. Square Enix has even purportedly released a statement after fan backlash to the "remake" that the next entries will not (substantially?) deviate from the original. How is that even possible given how far we've already deviated?

No, they are trying to please everyone, and that just doesn't work. You have to pick a lane and stick to it, and they've clearly chosen theirs. But you can't then pretend you're going to be in two lanes at the same time and expect people to believe you.

If you like what they have done, then that's fine with me. It means you like Square Enix. But for those of us who really only like Squaresoft, this "remake" was a disaster story-wise (again, opinions vary on gameplay--I liked the gameplay overall, but for me gameplay is always secondary to story). We could break down what we feel is different from FFI to FFX vs. the later entries, but who cares? It's a matter of preference whether you like post-merger or pre-merger Square.

What it does seem like to me is that this sort of thing is a bad omen for the creative direction of studios who continue to exploit past IP for fans to gobble up (Star Wars for example), instead of making something new and original, which is obviously much harder to do, and which is what they did brilliantly back in 1998. I am not one of those FF7 fans who replays this game over and over. I have replayed a few times, once every number of years, and every time it's a great experience. I can't really say that about any game that is that old aside from some of the other classics.

That game is truly something special, and that's why it's their best selling game of all time. We could all probably benefit from appreciating that accomplishment and maybe even remaster and mod it, but turning it into a Frankenstein Kingdom Hearts version for nostalgia purposes, that frankly is a sad way to treat a beloved story and milestone and achievement in gaming.

I'm not saying that everyone should think this "remake" is a bad game. That would be a stupid thing to want. I am saying that hopefully we can at least acknowledge that this "remake" is so dramatically different from the original in so many ways, that whether you like it or not, they obviously did not create something that simply retells FF7 and gives you a "new FF7-like experience" in that old world. This new world may have polygons and textures designed to look like the past, but in its core, by Chapter 18, it is unrecognizable, and that seems to have been their point from the start. They appear to look at their old catalog as a cash cow for ports and remasters, and now for retconned/reimagined remakes, not as a vault of their greatest accomplishments or as inspiration for how to make even more amazing games in the future. And that much has been made clear, at least for now, from the perspective of the "annoying Squaresoft fans." We'll see what FFXVI is like.

Just got back so im finally able to response and if some of my statements are overreach I apologize early as I feel I know the root of some comments made.

1) I rewatched the video before I made that post and he makes the comparison to rufus early on as an example of why the writing is bad focusing on the remake, which as I stated considering what was going on could have the same behind the scenes movements to explain his appearance. He does this a lot through the video where he picks an element over blows it and carefully changes the subject like you can't levy the same complaints to og i.e. the side characters who are for specific side quests not really standing out when og does the same. In that same vein he acts like those same side quests characters are constantly in the story when they aren't.

2) Kitase has gone on record stating the expanded lore is cannon, considering it was made after og it makes sense they would make appropriate alterations so things are coherent. I.e. Before crisis deals with the first Avalanche group who is mentioned in passing but it would make sense that there is a larger group as a whole considering how many people do not like Shinra and how the og makes that a point that there are just as many people hurt by Shinra as there are helped by them.

3)Nomura didn't write this and Nojima the guy who made ff7 good narratively is the main writer behind remake the problem is if they did a 1:1 the secret of mana complaints would have marred the story(saying they didn't do enough) and they actively COULDN't do a 1:1 because of the expanded lore of the 7 universe games like before crisis, and crisis core dramatically change the foundation that 7 sits on and fans would have been upset. Not to mention they rightfully point out a vast majority of people already know the story so they couldn't do the same Deus Ex Sephiroth like in OG. They are doing a remake/sequel to a game with expanded lore that if they ignore undermines all the other games and material made so from the jump things would have to be different while maintaining the general narrative structure which Remake does and is what they said they were doing. So no we DON'T know Nomura's vision is in the forefront and he is actively stepping down as lead director for part 2 and 3 which makes sense considering the directorial role was literally dropped on him when they played the trailer for staff internally.

4 & 5)While Sakaguchi wrote the initial scenario Kitase and Nomura rewrote it with help from Nojima after he got off of another project. And Nojima is the one who made the whole thing coherent, he is also the one who wrote Advent children and Crisis core. I cannot reiterate they are expanding everything the whispers are a natural extension of the planet and in conjunction with og makes sense as a big part of that game is the will of the planet and who the planet chose as well if the planet deems humans a parasite to be cleansed when holy is used(I know people use the children laughing but it could have easily been the cubs laughing which again points to how vague og 7 can be). From a new viewer I can see how the Barret scene can be a wtf moment but in og we literally see the planet use the lifestream to physically help stop meteor this isn't too far out of norm for what the planet could possibly do. And no it isn't disconnected from the main themes all of the characters are still at their emotional beginning and by the end of it are still acting in line with how they were by the end of midgar.

6) Yes I agree personal taste is varied by everyone and the ability to discuss those opinions rather than pivot, handwave, or misrepresent the discussion leads to much more beneficial conversation. Sakaguchi left the company in 2003 so the timeframe without him is from 12 on up not 13. That said within the ff community the major divide has been the change in gameplay style for a while. A lot of recent dislike for SE warranted or no has been due to bad decisions and some lackluster games despite their output being much higher than it's been in years so much so that when they do something right like their recent retro remasters or re releases there is a glut of individuals ready to downplay the effort as a cash grab or no effort port.

7 the rest) Look ff7 isn't my pick for best final fantasy that goes to 9 as it was a love letter to the franchise and the fans taking the most notable parts of the series and combining them into a fun game. That doesn't mean I can't look at their recent games and enjoy them for what they are it also doesn't mean I hold ff9 in such high regard that if they expanded the universe and did a remake including that expanded content from the jump I would hate it because it's not my memory of og 9. That also doesn't mean you can't be critical of a game like remake but it does mean when someone points out the flaws in logic for WHY someone dislikes remake like how the game blatantly pointed out information that explains the characters actions later in the story and you say "sounds like an excuse" or points out how someone is cherry picking to misrepresent event's characters and actions and it's a provable thing you and whoever(myself included) comes off as hating something because it's different or because of nostalgia or even arguing in bad faith.(hell there were people who hated the stair scene because they didn't get the joke and used that as a point for why the game is bad) Take op a large crux of their realization is that og was subtle and that less was more and it's true og was subtle, so subtle at times that for some people(I would hazard many) the story falls apart at northern crater because nothing made sense.(it does but you wouldn't get that unless you actively stopped taking characters words at face value at specific scenes) But it also had some tonal whiplash through the game like "hey this major character just died lets go do a snowboarding mini game with surfer butt rock 5 minutes later". Just like how you dismiss their recent retro releases some of those have been franchises/games that have never been released or never got the love they deserve like Romancing Saga, or Trials of Mana. In fact that they have been putting out more games with varied systems is like Diofield, Triangle Strategy, 2 Voice of Card games, Star Ocean, Valkyrie Elysium, Life is Strange(I know they just published this), Harvestella, Crisis Core being an up and down complete improvement over the psp original, and in the future Octopath 2, Forespoken, ff16, and remake part 2. You can argue they are more like they were during the snes era now than they were during the ps2, 3, or 4 era. Quality of those games aside I get the frustration and the worry and I can see how what happened in Remake can have people convinced that part 2 and 3 are going to be dramatically different but just like how Remake follows the same plot points of Midgar and expands upon it making the minutiae different, that is how they will follow the plot and I can't see how it would work any other way as before it's treating all the expanded universe as cannon which will change things.

[Idbuddy]

Originally posted by P. Quincy T.:

Your imagination filled in the rest. With JRPGs now becoming much more like theatrical movies, there is so much opportunity for them to force their vision upon you and introduce bad script writing, bad plot writing, bad character design elements.
At least, though, no matter how many bizarre "remakes" they decide to produce of their classics, we will always have the originals. Nothing can take away the brilliance of FF7 on PSX or Chrono Trigger on SNES and what those milestones in gaming accomplished to further the video game genre as something closer to art than simply entertainment.

You're joking right? Literally Squaresoft's major selling point was how they pushed consoles to their limit visually and you can see that from ff3 onward. Any limiting factor to cut-scenes was entirely due to console limitations and when they made 7 the entire marketing for it was using those, for the time, visually impressive cut-scenes to sell the game with very little to no showing what the models looked like outside of combat or said movies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDz9A4ByHIQ

It's something you can point to as to why ff7 was so successful.

[Idbuddy]

Not really? The closest you see that concept starting from mystwalker is maybe Terra Wars but that's more due to the claymation aspect. Fantasian(first time hearing about it and I dont have an apple anything so gonna be interesting doing the research to try it out) looks interesting but that idea isn't far off from how games are made even now since the idea has been about selling the illusion of depth/living world/free choice/open world. The execution seems fun though.
I contend that give modern tech to snes or nes era developers and things really wouldn't be that far off in both presentation and execution. It's why the FF series has always stood out graphically in comparison to it's peers and why things like the flex of Squalls jacket in 8 showcased why they were going to at the very least deliver a beautiful, at least for the time, product.