Tactics Ogre: Reborn

Tactics Ogre: Reborn

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Redguard Nov 15, 2022 @ 7:13am
Make it make sense! (please)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2888985340

I've seen this numerous times.

That rapier there gives more attack power, but takes away strength, which ... affects attack power?

I've found several weapons that give an increase to attack but take away from the stat that affects attack. Or gives an increase to offensive spellpower but takes away MIND, the stat that gives offensive spellpower. Can anyone explain how this works?
Last edited by Redguard; Nov 15, 2022 @ 7:14am
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Showing 1-15 of 21 comments
Leco Nov 15, 2022 @ 7:17am 
It doesn't reduce your strength.

The weapon you're currently holding gives you +1 to Str and the Rapier doesn't give a bonus to Str, so you'll lose your current weapon bonus if you unequip it...
リュータ Nov 15, 2022 @ 7:19am 
They not take away stats. Your previous weapon have that stats.
Redguard Nov 15, 2022 @ 7:33am 
Ok - so then ... why should I equip the rapier? Why should I keep the gladius? If the gladius gives me a bonus to strength, but the rapier does more attack damage, which is better to keep?
リュータ Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:05am 
By stats your gladius winning because +2 str. The stat also counted into damage calculation after all.
Rapier is for more defensive.
Redguard Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:13am 
Ok. I appreciate all the input. But, please, help me learn.

What does +1 str equal vs. +2 I'd get to attack? How is +1 str > +2 atk?
Last edited by Redguard; Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:17am
DARKawp Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:36am 
Originally posted by Redguard:
Ok - so then ... why should I equip the rapier? Why should I keep the gladius? If the gladius gives me a bonus to strength, but the rapier does more attack damage, which is better to keep?

Seems a bit hard to know since the game only is out for like 4 ish days. Due to that we don't know the exact damage formula and thus don't know how Weapon stats vs base stats affect the formula. Generally speaking though most weapons that are accuired later are straight up upgrades due to eventually those having higher stats and penetration bonusses.

But of course there are some sidegrades in gear for certain enemies.

Prime example being Baldur Gear. It has a high multiplier against Undead and also grants a bunch of casting stats that can be ideal for hybrid builds. So Palac of the Dead (A side dungeon) can be made more managable with Baldurs+1.

A main difference between Rapier and Gladius I can see is the fact that one deals slashing damage the other deals Piercing damage. Which could matter against different types of enemies but this is not yet the stage of the game where that would be of play.

But in this point in the game (A.K.A chapter 1/essentially the prologue) is not really a point where the 1 stat point difference would matter too much.

Hell Class and Characters individual stats matter more/give more of a stat boost compared to the +1-2 stats that the gear gives. So at that point one generally would go for the stronger base weapon strenght since that -1 you go for the upgrade can be compensated by green tarot cards and leveling up.
リュータ Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:36am 
Oh wait rapier have +1 dex its still winning in term of damage. Rapier will have 2~3 damage higher,
Well you dont need to stress over too much about damage calculation.
Weapon that have debuff always good if you want to take one. And that +2~3 of actual damage might be not much compared to +1 rt that you get from rapier. But then its back to preference.
Last edited by リュータ; Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:41am
Redguard Nov 15, 2022 @ 8:59am 
Hmm.

Appreciate the help, all.

I'm in Chapter 2. Just making it known in case I'm terribly underleveled or something.

But that's all good stuff to know.
.O. Nov 15, 2022 @ 9:14am 
Originally posted by Redguard:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2888985340

I've seen this numerous times.

That rapier there gives more attack power, but takes away strength, which ... affects attack power?

I've found several weapons that give an increase to attack but take away from the stat that affects attack. Or gives an increase to offensive spellpower but takes away MIND, the stat that gives offensive spellpower. Can anyone explain how this works?

A lot of the weapons in this game are actually sidegrades rather than direct upgrades. This becomes obvious once you progress far enough to get the crafting option in shops. This example is not 100% correct, but for example I think Rapier when upgraded does more damage to golems, while gladius does more damage to humans.

Either way, picking up weapons and armor should be based on the abilities and other things it gives you instead of just "oh it's more expensive, therefore it's better" since more expensive is not always better for the build you may have for that unit.
Bongoboy Nov 15, 2022 @ 9:46am 
Originally posted by Leco:
It doesn't reduce your strength.

The weapon you're currently holding gives you +1 to Str and the Rapier doesn't give a bonus to Str, so you'll lose your current weapon bonus if you unequip it...
You basically stated my first thought.

Originally posted by DARKawp:
~snip~
Prime example being Baldur Gear. It has a high multiplier against Undead
~snip~
A main difference between Rapier and Gladius I can see is the fact that one deals slashing damage the other deals Piercing damage.
~snip~
You point into the right direction. Weapons can have three things, the type of damage(crushing, slashing, piercing), an element and a racial benefit. Armors come in the same flavors, just for defensive. When gearing up a caster you might want to keep in mind that Archers love to shoot casters.

Most Bows do piercing damage, the Rapier here is among few weapons that do piercing damage as well. Depending on what armor the enemy wears this might mean you will do more damage against those.
Argile Nov 15, 2022 @ 10:32am 
I wish the games systems weren't so obtuse.
DARKawp Nov 15, 2022 @ 11:01am 
Originally posted by RhopalicCoward:
I wish the games systems weren't so obtuse.

Yeahh.

But generally it's pretty not too complecated if broken down.

First we got the major 2 types of damages Magic vs Physical.

Then we have the 3 damage types Crushing, Piercing and Slashing.

Then we got elemental affinity if applicable (the 8 elements)

Most physical vs magic tends to be simple: DEX/STR vs VIT/DEF/AVD. and MIND/INT vs VIT/RES

For damage types, some armor has specific resistances, some races too. (Golems mainly)

For elemental affinity it 99% of the time isn't too relevant. just logical like Air gear resisting Air etc.

But 99% of the time the game doesn't go much further beyond maybe the physical vs magic due to most physical threats having bad magic resist and most mages having bad physical bulk.

Hell most of the time counterbuilding against X magic or X damage type just isn't effective due to this game being able to throw many types of damage at the player and opposide way around.
Redguard Nov 15, 2022 @ 12:09pm 
I will say - there are a few unclear things with how this goes - I like how it was put above: obtuse. But even being obtuse, one thing is very clear:

This is still one of the greatest games in the genre.

I played Fell Seal and it's not even close. And I kinda like Fell Seal. It ain't Tactics Ogre lol.

This is part of the fun, I guess.
DARKawp Nov 15, 2022 @ 12:48pm 
Originally posted by Redguard:
I will say - there are a few unclear things with how this goes - I like how it was put above: obtuse. But even being obtuse, one thing is very clear:

This is still one of the greatest games in the genre.

I played Fell Seal and it's not even close. And I kinda like Fell Seal. It ain't Tactics Ogre lol.

This is part of the fun, I guess.

Yeah. I love how in dept the system can be but it indeed can be very obtuse due to half of the parts in the system not mattering too much for general play. unless one does challange runs (only using certain classes, No chariot, no retreats, no incaps, no deaths or solo runs, uniques only, generic only, etc.) Most of the stuff doesn't come up as often.

hell I am currently doing a 100% run. but wanting 100% of all titles in the game requires a no incap/chariot run for 2 specific titles (if things are the same as the PSP version.)
SonofaGlitch Nov 15, 2022 @ 1:01pm 
Originally posted by Redguard:
Ok. I appreciate all the input. But, please, help me learn.

What does +1 str equal vs. +2 I'd get to attack? How is +1 str > +2 atk?
So the basic lesson is:

Stats affect the damage calculation on attacks differently depending on the type of weapon and armor the enemy has.

Base strength is measured against an enemy's vitality (if I recall correctly) to determine if the weapon attack is going to penetrate their defense or not, and if it does penetrate, then the weapon attack value subtracts their defense value for the appropriate attack type (Melee or Ranged Physical or Magic) to get the damage of the attack . . . roughly (the formulas are more complicated and I can't remember them all, but it's like a 2 or 3 step process on every attack).

This is the reason archers usually stop being able to do much damage against heavily armored targets as you progress further in the game, as those targets tend to have high VIT scores and Archers don't get much STR growth, so their arrows start plinking off more and more (though Crossbow bolts do less damage they tend to have better armor penetration, which is why they become more valuable later on).

Again, the math and calculations behind this are pretty complicated for such a seemingly simple game, and as others have said, this version just came out so there hasn't been enough time for people to break the game open and see what's changed in the calculations and report back to everyone else, but that's the basic idea at least.
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Date Posted: Nov 15, 2022 @ 7:13am
Posts: 21