Spells don't take advantage of weakness?

[Space Dandy]

Why is this the case? It seems to be only for spells.

Wind element spell versus ground element enemy. Zero extra damage.
Ice versus wind enemy. Zero extra damage.

Is this bugged? It's very strange.

[Hitoshura]

I just did some testing:


Ice is strong vs Wind and weak vs Fire
Water is strong vs Fire and weak vs Lightning

Iuria (Ice Shaman) vs Oelias (Wind Cleric, no equipment, RES 206)
Iceblast IV -> 478 damage
Aquablast IV -> 430 damage

Iuria (Ice Shaman) vs Oelias (Fire Cleric, no equipment, RES 206)
Iceblast IV -> 374 damage
Aquablast IV -> 326 damage

So yeah, you're right, the element of the spell doesn't matter, only the element of each character.

[DecalMan]

Originally posted by Hitoshura:

I just did some testing:


Ice is strong vs Wind and weak vs Fire
Water is strong vs Fire and weak vs Lightning

Iuria (Ice Shaman) vs Oelias (Wind Cleric, no equipment, RES 206)
Iceblast IV -> 478 damage
Aquablast IV -> 430 damage

Iuria (Ice Shaman) vs Oelias (Fire Cleric, no equipment, RES 206)
Iceblast IV -> 374 damage
Aquablast IV -> 326 damage

So yeah, you're right, the element of the spell doesn't matter, only the element of each character.

Shouldn't the element of the character AND the element of the spell matter tho?
How did it work in PsP?

[knockoffsoda]

Okay, finally ran my own test. In it, I've got Iuria as a Lightning Shaman using 4 different equivalent spells against a Fire Cockatrice.

The results:

Thunderbird II (Lightning, same as Iuria): 317 damage per shot
Undine II (Water, strong against the enemy's Fire): 289 damage per shot
Silphyde II (Wind, neutral to both Iuria and the enemy): 277 damage per shot
Wendigo II (Ice, weak against the enemy's Fire): 265 damage per shot

This works out about like you might expect. Same element as caster is strongest, followed by the element the enemy is weak to, followed by a random element, and then followed by the element the enemy is strong against. Somewhat interesting that it's a linear 12 points per level between weak, neutral, and strong elements suggesting it might be some flat damage multiplier.

This reinforces my feeling that spell damage *does* take into account the element of the spell.

[Hitoshura]

Weird, i did more tests and didn't reach the same conclusion:

Iuria (Ice Shaman lv50, INT 265, MND 242) vs Oelias (Earth Cleric lv50, no equipment, RES 206)
Ice is strong against Wind and weak against Fire
Earth is strong against Lightning and weak against Wind

Iceblast IV -> 450
Sparksphere IV -> 342
Aquablast IV -> 402
Deadshot IV -> 402

Deadshot did the same damage as Aquablast, but Oelias is weak to Wind and neutral to Water.

Only conclusion i had was fire was bad when used by an Ice element character.

[All Good Girl]

It's true. It only works for the the enemy damaging us. Again, I love a challenge but this is just getting ridiculous. We never had issues like this before on the PSP version.

[knockoffsoda]

Originally posted by Hitoshura:

Weird, i did more tests and didn't reach the same conclusion:

Iuria (Ice Shaman lv50, INT 265, MND 242) vs Oelias (Earth Cleric lv50, no equipment, RES 206)
Ice is strong against Wind and weak against Fire
Earth is strong against Lightning and weak against Wind

Iceblast IV -> 450
Sparksphere IV -> 342
Aquablast IV -> 402
Deadshot IV -> 402

Deadshot did the same damage as Aquablast, but Oelias is weak to Wind and neutral to Water.

Only conclusion i had was fire was bad when used by an Ice element character.

It could be that the missile spells work differently than the summons. Could also be I didn't check the cockatrice's equipment for possible resistances (not that a cockatrice can have much).

[Pickleton]

Originally posted by Diamond Rainn:

It's true. It only works for the the enemy damaging us. Again, I love a challenge but this is just getting ridiculous. We never had issues like this before on the PSP version.

Please don't confuse people with commentary.

[Pickleton]

Originally posted by knockoffsoda:

Originally posted by Hitoshura:

Weird, i did more tests and didn't reach the same conclusion:

Iuria (Ice Shaman lv50, INT 265, MND 242) vs Oelias (Earth Cleric lv50, no equipment, RES 206)
Ice is strong against Wind and weak against Fire
Earth is strong against Lightning and weak against Wind

Iceblast IV -> 450
Sparksphere IV -> 342
Aquablast IV -> 402
Deadshot IV -> 402

Deadshot did the same damage as Aquablast, but Oelias is weak to Wind and neutral to Water.

Only conclusion i had was fire was bad when used by an Ice element character.

It could be that the missile spells work differently than the summons. Could also be I didn't check the cockatrice's equipment for possible resistances (not that a cockatrice can have much).

Could also be stuff like prevailing element on the map or weather.

[Army of Optimists]

I believe the difference here is whether it's a monster-type or a human-type enemy. Hitoshura is attacking a Human Cleric. Knockoffsoda is testing against a Monster Fire Cockatrice.

Monsters seem to have a built in resistance modifier that makes them weak against certain elements. Humans do not. This is probably because humans wear armor that determines their resistances, but monsters don't get equipment. In other words, it's not the Fire sign weakness that's providing the extra damage, it's that Fire Cockatrices have a low resistance to Water damage.

This is also why Finishers with element damage do more to certain monsters. I assume weapons with elements also work this way.

[Space Dandy]

I think it may be that regular spells are not working properly. Missle,etc.

Summons might be getting the bonuses. But not other "spells". The game is treating them as different attack types.

[Pickleton]

Originally posted by Salted B:

I think it may be that regular spells are not working properly. Missle,etc.

Summons might be getting the bonuses. But not other "spells". The game is treating them as different attack types.

Well the spells say whether they're crushing, slashing, or piercing damage on top of the element. It's possible that the target has a natural defense to whatever damage type that spell is. Just talking out my butt, though.

[Space Dandy]

Originally posted by Pickleton:

Originally posted by Salted B:

I think it may be that regular spells are not working properly. Missle,etc.

Summons might be getting the bonuses. But not other "spells". The game is treating them as different attack types.

Well the spells say whether they're crushing, slashing, or piercing damage on top of the element. It's possible that the target has a natural defense to whatever damage type that spell is. Just talking out my butt, though.

You wouldn't expect there to be no bonus whatsoever for 5 out of the six elements in this case, though. There's no difference among any of them except for the one that matches the caster.

[knockoffsoda]

Originally posted by Salted B:

Originally posted by Pickleton:

Well the spells say whether they're crushing, slashing, or piercing damage on top of the element. It's possible that the target has a natural defense to whatever damage type that spell is. Just talking out my butt, though.

You wouldn't expect there to be no bonus whatsoever for 5 out of the six elements in this case, though. There's no difference among any of them except for the one that matches the caster.

Except at least in some cases, there does seem to be a difference between them.

The only thing that seems clear at this point is that this isn't well understood.

[Space Dandy]

Yes..... Why is this so jumbled and convoluted.

I just want clear rules that the game follows. Apparently that's hard to program....

[knockoffsoda]

Always had it as a legit criticism of Tactics Ogre that something as simple as damage calculation is so opaque. In a game about strategizing and tactics, your systems should be as transparent as possible.