This game looks pretty awful, is nostalgia the only appeal?

[toughnails]

I doubt the gameplay holds up either, heard it was more about the grind than any actual tactics.

[Gray Riders]

The game's general design and balance changed so drastically between the original and the PSP version that I wouldn't be too certain how anything will end up in this one just yet. For instance the PSP version made the game vastly easier with the lives system but we haven't seen those in any screenshots so far.

Originally posted by toughnails:

Given all the Disgaea comparisons in this thread, I guess there's a lot of grinding to be done. Very disapppointing.

I much prefer games where you use your brain instead of just overleveling your dudes and steamrolling through missions "for the story" (which I could care less about in a video game).

The comparison was people saying it isn't like Disgaea. You don't just get higher level than your opponent to steamroll through in Tactics Ogre; if you end up doing that it means you spent a bunch of time grinding to make the game less interesting for yourself.
Edit: It might not even be possible; if I recall correctly the remake scaled if you got too high leveled.

[the8anarchist88]

Originally posted by Gray Riders:

The comparison was people saying it isn't like Disgaea. You don't just get higher level than your opponent to steamroll through in Tactics Ogre; if you end up doing that it means you spent a bunch of time grinding to make the game less interesting for yourself.
Edit: It might not even be possible; if I recall correctly the remake scaled if you got too high leveled.

Yeah that does happen but only once you hit coda/turn back the wheel, first time through is fixed levels, really the only time overgrinding becomes an issue one particular boss

[kalanyr]

No, it's possible to activate the level scaling by overgrinding (once you pass a certain level it kicks in) and also by going past PoTD Floor 3 pre Coda/Wheel.

[Wither]

Story is top notch, characters design is nice (I only go Choas route), combat is good because it is easy. Those are the good parts.
But the game Is a grind fest. A VERY slow one. Don't even go to crafting system, that justify save scumming.

[Da Murph]

I have been playing this game on and off since its release back in back in 1998 and I can 100% say it holds up in story and game play, assuming a tactics RPG is what you enjoy. Very very few games have he level of political intrigue and story this one has.

[Haddon]

Originally posted by Silfie:

Originally posted by kalanyr:

This game is not well designed balance wise.

Weapons have special skills but they are harder to learn and use than magic but are generally more powerful. Some physical classes get interesting active skills. But for most of the story the best physical attack is having a bow/crossbow and shooting your enemy in the face from extreme elevation.

The best end game builds are all about Elemental Weapons and maxing out the skill that increases damage for that Element and Utility Magic.

Magic varies wildly in power throughout the game depending on how long it is since you got a magic upgrade that your classes can use.

Hybrid classes generally do not work, though some of them can still function as dedicated classes.
The Valkyrie/Rune Knight is a good early game close (maybe a little too good) but it's growth is terrible and it struggles to do damage at all by mid-late story. The Ninja is an extremely deadly physical attacker and Utility based Ninjutsu is often extremely good but Ninjutsu based on Magic is useless for a Ninja unless you boost their stats yourself. The Terror Knight is kind of useless too.

I'm usually a big fan of hybrid classes since they tend to be the most fun aspects of 2 distinct playstyles put together when done well, stuff like Samurai in FFT or Red Mage in general are some of my favorite classes. It's a shame to hear that it's not done well here.

I don't mind not being optimal in loadouts as long as stuff is good enough/can be made to work for the story. I rarely delve into optional endgame challenges.

This guy is SO wrong about hybrid classes. They are the best in the game, by far. They just take work to make worth using, they need high elemental affinity and weapon skill, and then you use them more for support and debuffing than outright damage, with a few exceptions like Lord. Lord acting as a godly Rune Knight, Dark priest working as a damage and disable and actually ok tank, the White Knights and Paladin acting as decent debuff cleansers and tanks and damage, Vartan can go back and forth between melee and acting as a skirmisher in a single round, clerics with lobbers and debuff items or elemental stones, songstress with lobber IIRC is also great, one of Yuria's class options anyway, water casters for healing rain make a pretty good essentially red mage with the right set-up, Runes setting up a block while a tank with ZoC skills (forgot the name) on can completely change a battle, Ninjutsu (monkey?) up a wall, and then shoot enemies up top with a Charm blowdart.

The Terror Knight is NOWHERE NEAR useless, it just doesn't get useful at all until you have leveled up its terror skill. And you play them with the lightest equipment you can to makeup for their atrocious speed. Their debuff is enormous, and late game their spells can be useful too, like stun and leaden especially. Granted, if you have Frighten by other means, you probabl also have leaden and stun too, so they then become not worth it really.

[SomeGuy1]

Terror Knight really pops off once it learns Lament of the Dead, but it does so soooo late. Drain Power is also clutch against bosses.

Late game Valkyrie/Rune Knight can use TP to cast free Wisplight 2s.

[Silfie]

That's kinda nice to hear, I might give the game another go on sale or at some point

[Silfie]

Well, maybe they're that way by design, there isn't anything inherently wrong with something weaker early and stronger later, that's used in tons of games, mobas for example.

The cool thing about games with class systems is that you can usually pick whatever appeals to you, either thematically or gameplay-wise, specially if the game isn't so hard that you need to have a minmaxed loadout to win. So... noone is forcing you to play the slow growth class here.

I never understood the "grind until getting to actual game" argument. It's all gameplay, if you don't enjoy a game in the first few hours I doubt you'll stick with it in the long run.
You haven't needed to "grind" in 90%+ of JRPGs since the NES era, with some exceptions on the SNES, because JRPGs have almost always been braindead easy. It's more that people's first reaction to the slightest challenge in the genre is to grind instead of trying to use braincells a bit more.

[Haddon]

Originally posted by Benkei Kuruma:

Thing is, I don't really have the patience to play through an entire game before a class is "kinda good". That's not really a good argument for the class, in my opinion, if I can't really experience their greatness until I've invested tens of hours of my ever-limited lifespan into them.

That whole "grind until you get to the actual game, the good stuff, etc" is so outdated, I'm talking 2000s MMORPG when I was in high school and had all the time in the world, and I'm done with it. I remember playing the original Everquest for endless hours until my class was finally relevant in groups or raids, because they unlocked some broken buff or something at level 80. Naa bro.

Not saying I want instant OP classes. Just that a class should be rewarding to play throughout the game. And I shouldn't have to handicap their defense because they are painfully slow if they wear equipment that was literally designed for their archetype to wear. Come on with this garbage.

These are some pretty big flaws that I hope the remake addresses. It's not like it's unprecedented to implement a dope heavy armor wearer in a tactical RPG, it's been done before. Just needs some fine tuning and I'm sold.

This just screams "I want to play games MY way and if they aren't MY way they are BAD,". You are in a tiny, TINY minority in tactical RPG players. Like...look at how long it took in FFT to get the good jobs, let alone their skills. Getting all of the summons took "tens of hours". TENS?! Wow, that is nothing. Maybe TRPGs are not the games for you. This is an advanced class. In the original version, you didn't get them until almost the very end of the game, unless you built specifically for them from the beginning. In the GBA game, they were the second-to-last class you usually unlocked, aside from the specials. In terms on FFT, they are like Dragoons and Samurai, things you won't even SEE (except one) until mid-game.

Terror knights can wear heavy armor just fine, they just then don't get their TP quickly. The difference between light and heavy armor is not significant in terms of defense, you get way more from skills. Fear on the enemy will decrease the damage they do to you more than having heavy armor.

You are basically saying "this is bad design!" without even know HOW THE GAME WORKS. For instance, a TK mid game, you don't get them early game, can still run out, pump out a stun and a single-target fear, and then just be a regular damage dealer. They are a berserker or knight essentially, with slight difference. It takes awhile to get their skills leveled, and to get them leveled and to the point where you can unlock Lament, to make them really good. Up to that point...they are another tool you can use. I use all fast characters in TRPGs, so I don't use them, but when I did a challenge run of all melee units, they were INCREDIBLY useful once I put the time into them.

[darkholyPL]

Terror Knight is kinda fun to use, but the biggest problem I had with it is that it's just so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slow... And if you try to 'counter' that by equiping light, then.. well you're not getting a tank anymore, and it's not a dps class, so.. you just have a not so great unit with fear.
I like te design of it and used it anyway, but man, there were fight were he didn't even make it to the enemy before it was over. Archers and ninjas, and hell even spell casters would clean the map before the big guy got anywhere usefull sometimes.

[the8anarchist88]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Terror Knight is kinda fun to use, but the biggest problem I had with it is that it's just so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slow... And if you try to 'counter' that by equiping light, then.. well you're not getting a tank anymore, and it's not a dps class, so.. you just have a not so great unit with fear.
I like te design of it and used it anyway, but man, there were fight were he didn't even make it to the enemy before it was over. Archers and ninjas, and hell even spell casters would clean the map before the big guy got anywhere usefull sometimes.

yeah i had a terror knight with the ogre set for a thematic setup, literally only ever took 1 damage from everything, but she had the recovery time of a glacier, which yes, i'm aware the ogre armors have the worst item weights in the game, but yeah, kinda hope they get a RT buff

[Haddon]

Originally posted by the8anarchist88:

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Terror Knight is kinda fun to use, but the biggest problem I had with it is that it's just so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slow... And if you try to 'counter' that by equiping light, then.. well you're not getting a tank anymore, and it's not a dps class, so.. you just have a not so great unit with fear.
I like te design of it and used it anyway, but man, there were fight were he didn't even make it to the enemy before it was over. Archers and ninjas, and hell even spell casters would clean the map before the big guy got anywhere usefull sometimes.

yeah i had a terror knight with the ogre set for a thematic setup, literally only ever took 1 damage from everything, but she had the recovery time of a glacier, which yes, i'm aware the ogre armors have the worst item weights in the game, but yeah, kinda hope they get a RT buff

The Ogre Set is best on the fastest characters that can use it, where TKs are best with their defenses from their skills, and armor being light. They can still be VERY tanky like that, they just depend on Fearing the enemy to make sure their own defenses are high enough. Fear and stun if you can. They work really well paired with another tank. Feared, stunned enemies do almost nothing against a TK and a White Knight. Two together can tank 5-8 units fairly easily.

[jbfirexcoil]

Originally posted by .Blade.:

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

This is one of the best games ever made in the 'tactics' sub-genre and overall, to me, one of the best games period.
It's not for everyone, I can understand that, but if you are into sRPG's at all, then this game is pretty much royalty.
And it's not just simply nostalgia, I've replayed the PSP remake multiple times and had a blast everytime I did (the grinind of classes, that has been changed here btw, notwithstanding...).

Is it though..? I mean I've never personally ran into people actively dogging on things like Disgaea for being worse than Tactics Ogre and generally if someone played something far superior in the past due to nostalgia they'll never shut up about it which makes me think Disgaea is still considered even by those people as the better game or maybe it's just that the story is really the only thing that makes it more desirable but people too ashamed they liked a game for the story over the mechanics.

I would whole heartedly disagree. Tactics Orge and FFT are 2 of the greatest RPGS of all time in my opinion . I liked DISGAEA but wasn’t a huge fan.

[Sen]

To people saying you have to grind in Tactics Ogre that just isn't true at all. And yes, the crafting system was "grindy" in the PSP version via RNG but they've completely changed crafting so that it's guaranteed success every time now. Also as some have mentioned in this version it caps your max team level as you progress through the story so you can't over level your characters even if you wanted to.

And to the OP, this is the single best SRPG I have ever played so maybe don't judge a book by its cover? Unless you're specifically referring to this remake version which I couldn't understand because from what I've heard they've done nothing but improve what was already there in the PSP remake. And I'm not speaking from a place of nostalgia, just this past year I invested roughly 120 hours into a repeat playthrough of the PSP title - it still very much holds up.