Very confusing gameplay!!!!!!!!!!!

[FreshKimchi]

I tried for 30 minutes how to play this game and eventually gave up.
I didn't know the difference between a mini-miner and a miner, and I couldn't figure out why the scan robots or workers didn't mine and bring resources back. for 30 minutes! In the end, it was more annoying than fun after learning that you had to order another item to bring the material. why? Shouldn't basic items be able to be made without building facilities so that users can learn the process naturally? I think this is more like annoying work rather than detailed work.

[OldUncleJ]

There's definitely a lot of manual fiddling at the start, I'll admit. There are a few places that are not immediately apparent when you first play (like fixing a slot to the ingredients and the product so that the network will know what to ship and save the slots at the same time). I'm just not 100% sure that additional steps in the tutorial would be helpful - maybe a more in-depth video series on their YT channel would help once it hits EA?

[Raptor Jesus]

Originally posted by john666y:

There's definitely a lot of manual fiddling at the start, I'll admit. There are a few places that are not immediately apparent when you first play (like fixing a slot to the ingredients and the product so that the network will know what to ship and save the slots at the same time). I'm just not 100% sure that additional steps in the tutorial would be helpful - maybe a more in-depth video series on their YT channel would help once it hits EA?

You really shouldn't need to watch a youtube video to understand how the game works.

[Mordtziel]

The tutorial needs a lot of help if it's going to attract a more casual player base. Right now it's enough for someone that's specifically looking for something complex and is willing to experiment, but the casual base is definitely not going to stick around, just like our op here. It might be a bit more beneficial to have something closer to a legitimate tutorial than just kinda dumping things on the player. Like multiple scenarios where the player is dropped into a partially established base and has to go through the steps to automate it and the game explains it to the player in detail with limited options. At the very least, this basically needs done for the most basic functions like mining and moving materials from one area to another. Then there could be more advanced tutorials where you're using the behavior modules to setup groups for mining or patrolling or whatever else the dev/community feels should be more or less standard.

[Fartloud]

The start is pretty rough honestly, but when things start to make more sense, the mind already starts creating possibilities that are only possible with the new twists and features that this game provides. For me personally the main issues arrived with the 'requests' and inventory management. Felt like i was playing inventory tetris before even figuring out much more engaging things work. You just want to click a single button to dump all the things somewhere, but apparently it is easier said than done.
It can also get pretty bizzare that you learn to use this X thing, but then immediatelly after you are met with slot constrains and have to constantly switch things in and out, untill you get the building slots somewhere. Just this sorta progression from small things to bigger things and then even bigger things need some sort of more linear approach.

This game is most likely the next big thing for the assembly line/automation/factory subgenre. That is quite clear.
As far as i remember Factorio went through a few iterations of early game, UI and tutorials. This game will need a similar treatment.
With that said, i would not expect this game to be really that popular for casual players, no more than Factorio is/was.

[beatwho]

We are continually improving the player experience for new and casual players, and taking care not to be annoying to experienced players. Before the previous patch the tutorial was hidden in codex, and while we feel like we are moving in the right direction we understand that it is a long road to get right, unfortunately.

In a similar way we are trying to keep the game approachable and playable for players who don't want to use behaviors and maybe aren't programmer minded, while trying to also cater for those who want to go crazy with them.

We do realize we have a somewhat niche market so always appreciate when people take the time to write down their thoughts about the game! Thanks.

[❆🎄Douglas 🎁 🎂]

This is the most complicated UI I ever saw. The devs are out of this world. I had to give up. Good games don't need manual. Dyson Sphere is very complex are requires zero tutorial. Good design needs no tutorials.

I don't consider myself a casual player. I have hundreds of hours in Satisfactory, Factorio, Dyson Sphere (the best of all), Space Engineers, Starcraft, whatever. Just saying I'm not the the sims guy or the battlefield guy. I'm into this kind of game, but i'm too old to take an hour trying to learn things that should be obvious.

[Mordtziel]

Honestly, the game is pretty straightforward for the basics once you have learned them and it takes like a minute to learn those basics. Basically just give everything a home to dump in or set up item requests (think of this like setting up your conveyor belts in those other games) and manually control the rest and you'll get pretty far just fine. It's just the later, more complex behavior programming that takes real time to learn and wrap your head around.

[ihKu47]

Yeah, I think the tutorial could be more beginner friendly, I think even the layout was slightly confusing at first. I like the game concept, and I think a lot of others will too once they over the initial learning curve, where the tutorial is ofc very helpful. Maybe the game could ask at the beginning if you want a more hands on tutorial (for inexperienced players) or if you wish to figure things out reading the codex (for players familiar with this genre)?

[Buntkreuz]

I had a similar reaction, but it was more the overload of menus, popups and illogical submenu ordering, that i quit to play the full version with a hopefully more streamlined overview.
It was stuff like me ordering a unit to produce metal plates, but it somehow couldnt due to a lack of metal bars, that i produced earlier.
But where those bars were located, why the unit wasnt able to pick them up automatically etc, was beyond my understanding.

I think the dev has made a too complicated game there, where units are modular, but also have inventories etc.
It sounds fun on paper as it opens up for a load of possibilities, but it also just obstructs the fun core gameplay loop.
A mere Factorio Production Game with Units you can command would already have been enough to make it fun.
And if you want modular units, fine enough, so make them.
But the early game in connection with the bad menu and confusing layout, kills that.


Another problem that follows suit is, that on one hand i have a tutorial popping up and on the other hand an annoying AI voice trying to inject story while giving me orders.
Pick one, either its a tutorial where i get tutorial orders or have a story and give me story orders.

Both at the same time is a majorly stupid decision, because you just overload orders from left and right for no reason.
At that point one side orders me to learn how production goes, while the other side constantly nags about having me to pick up items from the ground.
Its annoying and bad design.

[Mordtziel]

I think it's fine that you have both objectives and tutorial, but the tutorial should definitely be explaining the steps to complete the objective and not something that feels completely unrelated.

[OldUncleJ]

Originally posted by Raptor Jesus:

You really shouldn't need to watch a youtube video to understand how the game works.

I will point out that I never said it was a must to understand the game. It is - as experience from my old job with mobile game entertainment - definitely useful in explaining nuances of gameplay and its functions, especially with behaviors.

That said, I do have some programming experience, so I think that was part of why I was able to flow with the tutorial well (and am very hands-on, so the UI wasn't frustrating for me). I can definitely see, though, how it can be a different experience for other people, and I appreciate beatwho and the dev team for working to find that middle ground.

[PSquared1234]

This was a very bad demo, IMO. I finally quit when I concluded the only way I could "equip" the uplink antenna (at least that I could figure out) was by disconnecting a part from the base to make room for it. This is after me clicking on literally everything (having a greyed out "Equip Item" was particularly annoying). I found it confusing enough to distinguish inventory slots from equipment slots. You then have me build an out building. Am I supposed to use this out-building for the uplink antenna? Dragging it in there, I finally figure out, just moved it to an inventory slot. Ultimately your solution is to un-equip the assembler to make room for the uplink antenna. Really?! Why then did you have me build this out-building? You had me build another worker. Am I supposed to put the Uplink Antenna on the Worker (keep in mind that you DID have me put the mining laser on a Worker earlier)? There needs to be a flow, a->b, b->c, etc. At least to my mind, you did a->b, x->y, b->c, y->z.

You teach us how to create one component. Then you jump to something that needs many components, but only provide one factory (or whatever it was named) that makes one type of component at time. Make Iron Bars from Iron Ore. Switch production to make Iron Plates from Iron Bars. Switch production again to make Circuits (or whatever it was called) from Iron Plates & Crystals. I didn't find this jump in complexity intuitive - it would have been far more intuitive to have gone from one factory making iron, to adding another factory making iron bars, then another making iron plates, etc. Going from 1 factory to 3 factories is, IMO, a natural progression. Relying on the player to switch a factory's production 3 times to make the necessary components, with no prompting from the tutorial, was too big a jump. Either that, or provide vastly better instructions ("you'll need to make 50 iron bars, and from them 10 iron plates..." or the like).

This is a personal take, but I found having both a voice-over tutorial screen and an objective screen, which are not necessarily synchronized, to be confusing.

I'll keep this on my Wishlist, to see if you can make some improvements. But I was not at all impressed by this demo.

[Talif Moor]

I think the real issue is just how much time it takes to do anything manually at the start. I spent an hour with the game and finally quit because I was frustrated that anything that I -wanted- to do felt impossible, and things that I knew I needed to do took forever. One of the blueprints that you're given is a "powerbot." What is it for? I tried having it follow around other units that were running out of power, but it would just sit there. I couldn't find any way to transfer power to them, which FELT like is what it was for. I was constantly struggling to get units to actually do things that I was wanting them to do. I had set up a few buildings to run a line of improved resources, but they would regularly just stop trading resources up and I had to sit there and figure out where my resources were hung up.
I THINK there's something here, but actually starting to play was so miserable I stopped caring.

[Mordtziel]

Alright, I think I see what at least part of the problem is. I spent 10 minutes going through the tutorial again and here's what I can notice cross referencing with the complaints here...

The player is told too much information about the game that doesn't immediately affect them.
The tutorial's instructions are a bit vague. The player will need to be told explicitly what to do with each step in the beginning as they will be mostly unwilling to experiment due to being overwhelmed by the everything that is a new game.

So to help deal with these two points...I think the tutorial needs to flow a bit more like...

After the AI introduces herself, she asks you to deploy the lander relatively near metal (show icon) and crystal (show icon).
Then we get told about the mining laser, however, it's told in such a way that it can be difficult to find and utilize. So it should probably be like "if you look in the command center's (show icon) inventory, you'll find a mining laser (show icon). Equip this to one of your Scouts (show icon) by dragging it from the command center's (show icon) inventory onto a Scout (show icon)."
Once equipped, there should be another step asking the player to select the Scout (Icon with mining laser on it) and then inform the player about the left side of the screen. Describing component sizes (S,M) and types (I).
Then the player should get the mining tutorial and be told explicitly how to make the Scout mine. "While you have the mining scout (icon) selected, right click on a metal chunk (icon) to have the scout start collecting metal."
Then we get the introduction to the fabricator. "Now, back at your command center (icon), you'll find a Fabricator (icon) in its inventory. Equip this onto your other Scout (icon) or equip it into one of your Command Center's equipment slots where it will be much more effective due to the M size slot." (or whatever, I think I saw that mentioned here on the forums, but don't remember anything about it in-game).
Once equipped, we have the next tutorial step: making metal bars and plates. "Now, next to the Fabricator's (icon) icon, you'll notice a production icon (icon). Select this to open the production menu. Go ahead and select Metal Bars (icon) for now. We'll need about 20 of them."
Once the production queue is started, the player should then be introduced to either the logistics network or the home system. (For simplicity's sake, probably the logistics network first and introduce the home network once we get a bit more of a production line going and especially if we establish an outpost somewhere at some point.) This would go something along the lines of "Now that production is set, you'll need to get the Metal Chunks (icon) from your mining scout (icon with mining laser) to your Fabricator (icon). You can do this by making sure your units are on the Logistics Network (icon) found at the bottom of the UI. Make sure this is turned on so that your units and buildings can supply all other units and buildings in the same powered network (P) with their inventories."
Once the units are on the logistics network, "good, now we just need to get those Metal Bars (icon) produced so that we can refine them into Metal Plates (icon) and then build an Assembler (icon). It is your first M-size component. For now, you will only be able to equip it onto your Command Center (icon) due to the scouts only being able to use Small (S) and Internal (I) components." This helps reinforce the idea of component sizes and types and where they can be equipped. Since the player needs to wait for production, this is also a good time to have a lengthier explanation. This is probably a good time to introduce the codex as well.

I won't keep going until I complete the entire tutorial for you, but I think this is enough of an example to show the way to go about it. Introduce each concept one at a time and be very explicit in what the player needs to do and when the instructions trigger. And then reinforce that information when it comes up again. Also don't forget that my tutorial here is partially flawed (the player will need to be explicitly told to gather crystal for the assembler for example).

[Vanyel]

Things were a little confusing at first, but I think that was primarily from trying to import my experience from other games (Factorio, DSP, Satisfactory, and Refactory) - doesn't work here as you don't have belts, splitters, and combiners.

I think the biggest issue is the Behaviors system - and while it might be powerful (once and if you are able to master it), it is overly complicated. Worse still is the tutorial where you are simply told to 'Run a Behavior' - with absolutely no examples or guidance given.

It shouldn't take hours to figure out how to make a bot simply mine until it's full, drop off at a specific building, repeat. Shouldn't have to figure out that you have to set one (or possibly 2) registers on the building, connect the bot to said building via the home register, loop the 'Mine' function back on itself even though the next step, to drop off the load is connected to the 'full' point on the mining instruction.

I simply thought (and figure it should be possible) - gave the building a unique name, tell bot to mine and when full go to the building - keep doing this until the nearby ore is used up. End of story.

btw...took just over 18 hours of game play to 'finish' the demo. I'd say most of that is from the behavior's system not being intuitively obvious and not being able to automate a lot of things. Almost everything I did was done manually.