Should Runick Fountain be unlimited now?

[Merilirem]

Its been awhile. You think 2 fountains would be too much?

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

That isn't true lol. Runick is perfectly fun in its own right. I built a new Runick Chaos deck and am enjoying myself. Runick is a cool deck. The only time it becomes unfun is when it becomes stun but that is because stun is anti fun. People playing stun enjoy it though because they enjoy making others suffer.

It's unfortunately the only way to play a pure Runick mill deck, chances are they don't like it either but are forced to because Runick mill has no way to protect itself outside of loading up on floodgates.

That isn't pure then. Just because floodgates are often generic does not mean its pure to load up on them. You are just playing Runick Stun which is half stun.

[DontMisunderstand]

Do we want to encourage play patterns of "I play the exact same card every turn until you permanently dislike Yugioh as a concept"?

[flutter]

iirc it mostly got hit because of the stun variant, but card of demise is banned and most floodgates are at 1 so it could probably be semi limited at this point. 3 would be a bit much.

[Papa Shekels]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Do we want to encourage play patterns of "I play the exact same card every turn until you permanently dislike Yugioh as a concept"?

That's not a play pattern, that's a sore loser mindset. Dozens of decks have a single card or boss monster as their intended win condition with the rest of the deck revolving around bringing it out, protecting it, and/or synergizing with it. Getting upset enough with that to quit the game is quite literally a skill issue

[JayDee Phoenix]

I think the issue with them getting hit is stun. As in the past Konami likes to hit stun cards in Master Duel. I personally think Fountain and Destruction should go to 2 already. Prob my most played deck is Bystial Runick and alot of the time it's frustrating because it's so easy to lose to just about anything because alot of the time your hands are not that great and then you need fountain to fix it and then you get negated. Hugin needs a discard to use so if you get negated that's like -1 on top everything.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by Zephyr:

It's unfortunately the only way to play a pure Runick mill deck, chances are they don't like it either but are forced to because Runick mill has no way to protect itself outside of loading up on floodgates.

That isn't pure then. Just because floodgates are often generic does not mean its pure to load up on them. You are just playing Runick Stun which is half stun.

You don't understand, that is pure Runick. I know you and many other people have an aversion to floodgates bordering on a phobia of them, but the truth is that's the only way to play a pure Runick deck because Runick itself is too weak to be playable without them.

If you want that to change Runick will need a better way of protecting itself, because its win con is too slow in the current meta.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

That isn't pure then. Just because floodgates are often generic does not mean its pure to load up on them. You are just playing Runick Stun which is half stun.

You don't understand, that is pure Runick. I know you and many other people have an aversion to floodgates bordering on a phobia of them, but the truth is that's the only way to play a pure Runick deck because Runick itself is too weak to be playable without them.

If you want that to change Runick will need a better way of protecting itself, because its win con is too slow in the current meta.

No, it isn't pure Runick. This isn't about an aversion to stun, its that Runick is its own deck. Playing pure is keeping the outside cards to a minimum. Stun is its own thing that is easily equivalent to an archetype which is why we add "Stun" to the name of any deck playing a significant amount.

Saying the only way to play something pure is to dilute it with something else is missing the point of what it means to play something pure. Runick being not good enough pure does not change what pure means. Runick Burn isn't pure either. Runick Spright isn't pure. Runick Stun isn't pure. They all however make the deck more playable in various meta's.

Adding 1-2 floodgates to the deck keeps it mostly pure. However Runick Stun add's more than that. Whether I find something distasteful or not from a game design and fun standpoint is irrelevant to the concept of a pure deck. Hell even just adding Dragoon is too much to really call the deck pure anymore and its only 5 cards. But those 5 cards add something truly different to Runick. As opposed to truly generic cards like Raigeki and monster reborn which have no identity behind them.

I guess what I am saying can be overly simplified to stun having too much of its own identity. The moment a floodgate hits the board there is too much of a change to the gameplay to ignore. It becomes a win-con in its own right. Dropping multiple makes you a stun deck because they have as much power over the way the duel is played, if not more than archetypes. When you build Runick stun you aren't just adding a single card that works to support runick on its own merit. You are adding a bunch of cards that work together to support their own strategy. You are merely using Runicks synergy to win using that strategy. It might keep your win con of decking the opponent out in place but its not doing it the way Runick does it. Stun isn't control and Runick is a control deck with an alt win-con.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Do we want to encourage play patterns of "I play the exact same card every turn until you permanently dislike Yugioh as a concept"?

That's not a play pattern, that's a sore loser mindset. Dozens of decks have a single card or boss monster as their intended win condition with the rest of the deck revolving around bringing it out, protecting it, and/or synergizing with it. Getting upset enough with that to quit the game is quite literally a skill issue

Can you explain how the gameplay loop for a deck and its play pattern are different things?

Can you explain this idea you've asserted that all spell/traps are boss monsters?

Can you explain how acknowledging that a play pattern exists and the ramifications of that play pattern is somehow being a "sore loser"?

Can you explain the lack of skill you're implying necessarily must be involved in accurately understanding how games work?



Think before you speak, please.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by Zephyr:

You don't understand, that is pure Runick. I know you and many other people have an aversion to floodgates bordering on a phobia of them, but the truth is that's the only way to play a pure Runick deck because Runick itself is too weak to be playable without them.

If you want that to change Runick will need a better way of protecting itself, because its win con is too slow in the current meta.

No, it isn't pure Runick. This isn't about an aversion to stun, its that Runick is its own deck. Playing pure is keeping the outside cards to a minimum. Stun is its own thing that is easily equivalent to an archetype which is why we add "Stun" to the name of any deck playing a significant amount.

Using generic cards to uplift a deck that doesn't even have enough cards to make up its own deck doesn't change the fact it's a "pure deck", I could see that argument if your "definition" of was even playable in the most technical sense but it isn't.

Saying the only way to play something pure is to dilute it with something else is missing the point of what it means to play something pure. Runick being not good enough pure does not change what pure means. Runick Burn isn't pure either. Runick Spright isn't pure. Runick Stun isn't pure. They all however make the deck more playable in various meta's.

The only deck which you listed that isn't pure is Runick Spright, generic cards don't make a deck not pure.

Adding 1-2 floodgates to the deck keeps it mostly pure. However Runick Stun add's more than that.

Because pure Runick, regardless of how you feel about it, literally has to in order to be playable.
[quote[]Whether I find something distasteful or not from a game design and fun standpoint is irrelevant to the concept of a pure deck.[/quote]
If that was the case we wouldn't be having this argument because "generic" is not an archetype and as such throwing generic floodgates to make a literally unplayable deck playable doesn't mean its no longer pure. Especially since "Runick Stun"'s win con is milling the opponent's deck.

Hell even just adding Dragoon is too much to really call the deck pure anymore and its only 5 cards. But those 5 cards add something truly different to Runick.

Which is a better argument than calling pure Runick not pure just because it runs generic floodgates.

As opposed to truly generic cards like Raigeki and monster reborn which have no identity behind them.

And floodgates like Summon Limit, the Drains, Level Limit, etc. etc. are truly generic, which is why this line you're drawing is completely arbitrary.

I guess what I am saying can be overly simplified to stun having too much of its own identity. The moment a floodgate hits the board there is too much of a change to the gameplay to ignore. It becomes a win-con in its own right.

Which is probably the real issue here because "Runick Stun"s win con is still milling the opponent's deck, the floodgates just keep them alive to do it. It's like arguing a pure deck ceases to be pure if it runs Raigeki or Monster Reborn which you yourself admitted to them being generic.

Dropping multiple makes you a stun deck because they have as much power over the way the duel is played, if not more than archetypes. When you build Runick stun you aren't just adding a single card that works to support runick on its own merit. You are adding a bunch of cards that work together to support their own strategy. You are merely using Runicks synergy to win using that strategy.

It's literally the same deck + floodgates, again this is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I said your aversion to floodgates is the issue here.

It might keep your win con of decking the opponent out in place but its not doing it the way Runick does it. Stun isn't control and Runick is a control deck with an alt win-con.

Runick's win con is literally milling the opponent just like "Runick Stun", your argument is inherently flawed because nothing as changed except for the fact Runick won't just get ran over because it's too slow in modern Yugioh. Literally the only difference between you adding Summon Limit to Runick and you adding Raigeki to Runick is that you don't like the former so it ceases to be "pure" in your eyes.

[Merilirem]

I can't respond to comments like that so I won't. I don't really understand how quotes work on steam. Always ends up a mess like when I tried just now. I'll just say that being pure means only using the archetypes cards with at most a couple of truly generic cards that don't form any coherent strategy of their own. Whether that is possible or viable does not affect what a pure deck is.

Long story short we just have different philosophies and I can't be bothered having a whole debate in this medium.

[e-dood]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

I can't respond to comments like that so I won't. I don't really understand how quotes work on steam. Always ends up a mess like when I tried just now. I'll just say that being pure means only using the archetypes cards with at most a couple of truly generic cards that don't form any coherent strategy of their own. Whether that is possible or viable does not affect what a pure deck is.

Long story short we just have different philosophies and I can't be bothered having a whole debate in this medium.

When it comes to quoting stuff in the manner he does, I just type out [!quote] [!/quote] (without the explanation points), then ctrl c then ctrl v as many times as needed.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by e-dood:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

I can't respond to comments like that so I won't. I don't really understand how quotes work on steam. Always ends up a mess like when I tried just now. I'll just say that being pure means only using the archetypes cards with at most a couple of truly generic cards that don't form any coherent strategy of their own. Whether that is possible or viable does not affect what a pure deck is.

Long story short we just have different philosophies and I can't be bothered having a whole debate in this medium.

When it comes to quoting stuff in the manner he does, I just type out [!quote] [!/quote] (without the explanation points), then ctrl c then ctrl v as many times as needed.

If you have actual typing discipline, copy-paste isn't even saving that much time.