Dong Zhuo Dishonest and embarassing game design

[Lahoo Eckbert]

"Lets have all the terrible gaming decisions and bundle them all together"
Bunch of oneshot mechanics, delayed attacks, infinte poise and combos... Seriously, what the hell were they thinking?
I know the Ng+ has an insane difficulty spike but this guy is beyond any other wall I've hit so far.

[L.Kaldwin]

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

"A false equivalence or false equivalency is an informal fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. "

Being able to copy paste a definition is not the same thing as being able to understand it.

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

Your main point was, the player doesn't know that they will die if they use something

Wrong.

Wrong.

[D. Flame]

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

Being able to copy paste a definition is not the same thing as being able to understand it.




Wrong.

Wrong.

It was my own post. I am pretty sure I am the one best equipped to know what my main point was and is, LOL.

[L.Kaldwin]

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

Wrong.

It was my own post. I am pretty sure I am the one best equipped to know what my main point was and is, LOL.

Of course, but why can you tell others that they do not understand what they were saying?

Man, if you were this good against Dong Zhuo we wouldn't be arguing with each other.

[D. Flame]

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

It was my own post. I am pretty sure I am the one best equipped to know what my main point was and is, LOL.

Of course, but why can you tell others that they do not understand what they were saying?

Man, if you were this good against Dong Zhuo we wouldn't be arguing with each other.

Because you are displaying your lack of understanding for all to see.

A false equivalency would be like saying, "a law that prevents people from marrying bears, that they love, means that it would be illegal for anyone to marry the person they love."

The law is specifically outlawing marriage to bears, but they are trying to twist it to apply to humans too. It is trying to use the "that they love" to fallaciously state that humans and bears are equivalent in this case. That's how the false equivalency fallacy works.

That is not the case with what I posted. What I posted was a "stand alone" counter-example. "Stand alone" means it was NOT being equated with anything else posted in the argument. It was just being used ALL ON ITS OWN to show how your supposed definition of unbalanced did not hold up under scrutiny and testing.

As it was not being equated with anything else in the thread (other than being used to test your supposed definition), it can NOT be part of a false equivalency (which is reliant on the "fake equals comparison").

You stating that it was a false equivalency fallacy, despite it being stand alone, and not being compared to anything else, proves your lack of understanding of the term. I am not declaring it out of the blue. I am just pointing out what is already on display.

[L.Kaldwin]

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

Because you are displaying your lack of understanding for all to see.

A false equivalency would be like saying, "a law that prevents people from marrying bears, that they love, means that it would be illegal for anyone to marry the person they love."

It is trying to use the "that they love" to fallaciously state that humans and bears are equivalent in this case. That's how the false equivalency fallacy works.

That is not the case with what I posted. What I posted was a "stand alone" counter-example. "Stand alone" means it was NOT being equated with anything else posted in the argument. I was just being used ALL ON ITS OWN to show how your supposed definition of unbalance did not hold up under scrutiny.

As it was not being equated with anything else in the thread (other than being used to test your supposed definition). it can NOT be part of a false equivalency. You stating that it was a false equivalency fallacy, despite it being stand alone and not being compared to anything else, proves your lack of understanding of the term.

Thank you for clarifying that. I misunderstood how it is used and misused that word against your argument. Deleted that.

My point is the same. You cannot say that players don't know that in NG+ when it was already introduced from NG. It is bad if the game doesn't tell you that already.

[Tiasmoon]

Origineel geplaatst door ArcaneMaverick:

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that we need to have higher standards. When people struggle, it isn't always their fault and in modern gaming, more often than not, the quality of the game sucks.

I'm be going after the No hit Vanquisher titles soon and that's where the real meat of the game is. That's where people figure out how solid the mechanics are and where they are flawed. That's the covenant between developer and player to make sure they did it right. Most devs just put in difficulty or challenges without really thinking or resting them.

Maybe you should consider having higher standards yourself? Some of us here have been arguing from the start with ''no-hit level of experience'' in mind.

Last time I fought Zhang Liao (I was just killing him to test something and because I was bored) despite having just woken up I got hit 4 times: 2 small hits during a sword combo, 1 lightning (was lazy and didnt dodge away as fast) and 1 time got hit by a critical (too slow, still not awake). These were all mistakes on my part. Not poor game design.
This was me just casually killing him. Not trying to no-hit him. However I understood his mechanics all well enough I only got hit because I was being lazy and not awake.

The hardest hits that im not sure I would have been able to avoid were actually the 2 combo hits. That only took like 10% of my hp total. Compared to the lightning that took 60%(?) and critical that took maybe 80%. Those 2 were easy to avoid and I only got hit because I was careless.

I played through all of NG and NG+ with only the 3 base potions. So 150HP x3.
That level of healing is not even enough to fully fill the health bar past halfway into the game. So I could not afford to get hit often. As a result I already got to learn all the mechanics (on human bosses anyway) very well. That is the perspective ive been arguing from the start.

I think you overestimate your own experience by a wide margin. Because this:

That's where people figure out how solid the mechanics are and where they are flawed.

Is something I already learned in my first fight with most of this game's bosses. If you had a mindset of someone looking for a challenge, you could have fought bosses the hard way from the start too, and be able to better contribute to the discussion of their difficulty or particular mechanics.

[D. Flame]

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

My point is the same. You cannot say that players don't know that in NG+ when it was already introduced from NG. It is bad if the game doesn't tell you that already.

LOL. I never once said players wouldn't know it. AGAIN, this example is not comparing itself to anything, including players in Wo Long.

The only purpose of the example was to show that your supposed definition is worthless.

[L.Kaldwin]

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

LOL. I never once said players wouldn't know it. AGAIN, this example is not comparing itself to anything, including players in Wo Long.

The only purpose of the example was to show that your supposed definition is worthless.

My comment was in the context of Wo Long aka the infamous fast grab and Dong Zhuo himself. I have realized that your example was actually irrelevant and truly worthless as it wasn't inside the context.

Which means, my supposed definition was not worthless because your example is irrelevant.

[awanderingswordsman]

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

They definitely are. That is the impression that a lot of viewers get, and the uploaders do nothing to diffuse that misunderstanding. They are complicit in the misunderstanding, and therefore, they are implying it, even if they are not explicitly stating it themselves.

They definitely aren't and it only takes the smallest amount of thought to figure out that they probably took a lot of tries. Many even mention (such as mine) how many tries it took in the description or at least give a vague idea of how long they were at it before they got this run. I think at this point speedruns and challenge runs are known well enough to know generally that it takes often times hundreds of attempts for the tougher challenges.

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

I mostly disagree, at least in regards to soulslikes. Trial and error was fine for retro games and fine for puzzle games. It doesn't really jive with the soulslike formula though. Players can still misjudge, but they should have a reasonable chance of getting it right on the first try.

Then it just comes down to the "reasonable" part and thats always going to be subjective. I'm sure you'd agree that some people got it first try, and some people didn't, so neither extreme works. You'd have to give a ratio of first try success that you find acceptable but thats just going to be your very subjective opinion.

Ultimately, it you played safe enough, you could first try dong zhou on NG+. You know his moveset from NG and you can be very patient to look out for any new changes in the fight.

You don't find that fun but then that just adds yet another variable to "reasonable". How safe can a player be expected to play? And honestly, if a person is going about the fight normally, most people's first attempt is going to be with 25 morale, just from clearing the level, giving them a solid buffer against the grab killing them. This means if they play well, they will be able to withstand any of the new tricks it has up it's sleeve on NG+ and then adapt their strategy to have a very "reasonable" chance at a first time clear.

The issue with not allowing trial and error though is deeper. It becomes extremely restrictive on what you can actually have a boss do. No mix ups, no tricks, no nothing. Just easily understandable attacks that won't beat anyone that has good timing and will ultimately make for a pretty boring game.

[D. Flame]

Origineel geplaatst door awanderingswordsman:

it only takes the smallest amount of thought to figure out

And now you know why their fanboys never figure it out.

Origineel geplaatst door awanderingswordsman:

Ultimately, it you played safe enough, you could first try dong zhou on NG+.

Possibly, but not on NG.

[L.Kaldwin]

Origineel geplaatst door awanderingswordsman:

Ultimately, it you played safe enough, you could first try dong zhou on NG+. You know his moveset from NG and you can be very patient to look out for any new changes in the fight.

I went back and ran a test on NG Dong Zhuo. He has the same fast grab, but A LOT slower normal grab. His starting animation is 30%-50% longer than his NG+ version. So NG+ increases his speed in some of his existing moves.

Origineel geplaatst door awanderingswordsman:

you can be very patient to look out for any new changes in the fight.

[Lahoo Eckbert]

Origineel geplaatst door crimsonedge11:

I call him Lu Bu's dad. I got the flawless title against Lu Bu on my first attempt against him in NG+, but NG+ Lu Bu's dad still took 2 attempts, and I still got hit a lot. The good news is, you can still get hit a lot and still beat him in NG+. You might actually have to learn the timings really well to beat him in higher NG+ cycles, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

I even got Zhang Liao down to where he doesn't land a clean hit on me, but I still occasionally take chip damage from blocking. Lu Bu's dad is certainly a trickier fight timings wise than Zhang Liao.

Also, there's a mod you can put on weapons that says you don't take attribute damage when blocking, I haven't tested this, but if this means no HP damage when blocking, that might make getting flawless a bit titles easier. There's a good difference between flawless with perfect deflects and flawless with a combination of deflecting and blocking.

The thing is, my claim isn't that this guy is unbeatable. I just claim that some of his mechanics are unfair and badly designed.
With that said, with my 2nd character on Ng+, I beat him first try.
Like others mentioned, there are ways to mitigate his damage(power drop) which prevents him from one shotting you and that's his gimmick, so he becomes easier once you find a way to go around that.

[Lahoo Eckbert]

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

If you don't want to learn how to handle it, it will always be bad for you.

How do you learn to handle something random?

[Heavenly Peaks Purveyor]

Origineel geplaatst door Lahoo Eckbert:

Origineel geplaatst door Menrva:

If you don't want to learn how to handle it, it will always be bad for you.

How do you learn to handle something random?

As someone who defeated him in the first attempt - I was only hit by that attack twice. Yes, it's hugely damaging - but I wonder what you guys builds are like. I have the armor with the absolute least in defense and physical resistance - and I managed to survive and even defeat him.

I don't think people are trying to disparage you totally, perhaps they legitimately mean that you should try some different things that you may not be doing.

Secondly, it didn't appear random to me. It is fast, and quite tricky to avoid - but I *did* manage to avoid it 50% of the time and even landed a deflect once or twice.

It's also worth noting that any enemy toting a halberd is bad news. That weapon is seriously one of the best in the game, long reach, high attack power and relatively quick - it also does fair spirit damage.

[Lahoo Eckbert]

Origineel geplaatst door Heavenly Peaks Purveyor:

Origineel geplaatst door Lahoo Eckbert:

How do you learn to handle something random?

As someone who defeated him in the first attempt - I was only hit by that attack twice. Yes, it's hugely damaging - but I wonder what you guys builds are like. I have the armor with the absolute least in defense and physical resistance - and I managed to survive and even defeat him.

I don't think people are trying to disparage you totally, perhaps they legitimately mean that you should try some different things that you may not be doing.

Secondly, it didn't appear random to me. It is fast, and quite tricky to avoid - but I *did* manage to avoid it 50% of the time and even landed a deflect once or twice.

It's also worth noting that any enemy toting a halberd is bad news. That weapon is seriously one of the best in the game, long reach, high attack power and relatively quick - it also does fair spirit damage.

It has nothing to do with build unless you got all your points invested in wood.
I play with 850 hp, fully upgraded medium armor and it is a oneshot. Although like I mentioned above, my 2nd character had power drop on wizardry spell, so once he gets that debuff, he can't oneshot me. And that is the entire gimmick of the boss. He feel unfair because he has a oneshot mechanic that can come out at random and yes I'm not talking about his regular grab, but when he executes the grab right after he finishes like a 4-5 hit combo.