Why do people say this game is "dumbed down"

[Uncle Jon]

I never played the other guilty games so I was curious since this is my first one? Does the community not like it?

[Constantine]

Originally posted by SmellTheJava:

Originally posted by PhilGamer112:

Max who is a fighting game veteran had put it to words eloquently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ChLCW95Mo

Max is as much as a veteran as a kid mashing on a controller for years without learning anything about the games he plays.

Aw come on, you can be a veteran and not be good. In fact most people who play fighting games aren't good if ranking statistics are anything to go by.

[tserleg1471]

I agree that Strive is more mechanically simpler than Rev2. Thanks to that my brain reads faster my opponent to adapt my play, and my opponent's brain has the chance to work faster too.

The thing about mechanics barrier is not that bad players can defeat better ones: good players will defeat consistently newbies, be the game hard or simple. Fortunately, otherwise it would be unfair.

Advantages of simple games:
- They are about who reads better his opponent, and adjust its gameplay. In harder games it's about who can performs complicated inputs faster with no mistakes.
- Newbies don't find them so overwhelming, so they can learnt to play the real game much faster.
- The time you would spend in long combos and boring stuff may be used to learn the strategical intrincacies of the game, which for most people is more fun.
- The skill ceil is not necessarily lower than in complex games. The skill floor is much lower.

Although I understand complexity fans:
- If combos and weird stuff are hard to learn, they can have an advantage spending time on it that others aren't ready to spend.
- They are used to it anyway, so the effort for them is lesser, and they also find it less boring.
- Mechanics can affect to the feeling of the game.

What happens:
- Most people find more fun easier FGs, so most developers are making them more accessible, and the tendency will continue.
- There will be during next decades players who prefer mechanically complex games, so they will still have their space.
- Anyway, Guilty Gear is a fraquise where Arc Systems has put the most resources, so they have tried to keep it accesible to get profit from the investment. Apart from that, it was a game who frighten most people, and still had a reputation of a good game, so Arc Systems considered that it was ideal to atract new people.

[huge penis swallower]

They made it more like a street fighter than a anime 1 death touch 10000x combo game

[[TE] Kuraudo]

Originally posted by valincx:

Originally posted by TE Kuraudo:

factually incorrect. Dumbed down isn't a bad thing. Compare this game with Xrd or Accent Core and try and tell me it has the same level of complexity with a straight face. Lots of people really dig this type of game that's closer to SF4/5 in terms of lower complexity than older GG's. GG boomers will snub it and deride it for having less mechanics, lower execution requirements, and stripped down characters: these are all true statements. However, the amount of new players who are able to pick the game up and have fun with it compared to older titles precisely because of GG's famous high execution requirements and high complexity being discarded speaks volumes.

Strive is a blast and definitely is taking the series in the right direction: less complex and lower execution is a GOOD thing when you look at what this series used to be like. There is reason KOF never overtook street fighter and it wasn't lack of quality.

How is the right direction to go essentially shafting us OGs tho? Dont get me wrong I like strive, its got alllll the good songs from every game, some basic combos carry over. But yeah, ♥♥♥♥ like missing utility moves etc just is disappointing.

No I get it: you guys definitely got shafted. "Right direction" in this case means expanding the audience which means more money.
Thing is, there are a lot of people like me who always wanted to play Guilty Gear, but haven't touched Xrd because of the high execution requirements. Should we be catered to? It's a hard question: on the one hand, what made guilty gear special really was that high skill ceiling, right? On the other hand, money. This happens to a lot of franchises, but I feel like fighting games benefit from a certain balance where scrubs can feel good about hitting a simple bnb 90% of the time (we'll still drop it under pressure) and making it accessible. I think Strive's systems are definitely less complex than Xrd, but a lot of that is also tied heavily into execution. Roman Cancels aren't so bad, especially since you can macro them to a button.

Maybe, they should have done this to BlazBlue and kept guilty gear as the highly technical fighter; I feel for you OG players. I feel like my enjoyment is directly harming yours and it's not a clean feeling.

[Constantine]

Originally posted by TE Kuraudo:

Originally posted by valincx:

How is the right direction to go essentially shafting us OGs tho? Dont get me wrong I like strive, its got alllll the good songs from every game, some basic combos carry over. But yeah, ♥♥♥♥ like missing utility moves etc just is disappointing.

No I get it: you guys definitely got shafted. "Right direction" in this case means expanding the audience which means more money.
Thing is, there are a lot of people like me who always wanted to play Guilty Gear, but haven't touched Xrd because of the high execution requirements. Should we be catered to? It's a hard question: on the one hand, what made guilty gear special really was that high skill ceiling, right? On the other hand, money. This happens to a lot of franchises, but I feel like fighting games benefit from a certain balance where scrubs can feel good about hitting a simple bnb 90% of the time (we'll still drop it under pressure) and making it accessible. I think Strive's systems are definitely less complex than Xrd, but a lot of that is also tied heavily into execution. Roman Cancels aren't so bad, especially since you can macro them to a button.

Maybe, they should have done this to BlazBlue and kept guilty gear as the highly technical fighter; I feel for you OG players. I feel like my enjoyment is directly harming yours and it's not a clean feeling.

Pft screw that. Ogs can suck my ♥♥♥♥ lol. They may have worked for it, but they're still a thousand times better at these kinds of games than I will ever be, so I can't feel even a hint of sorrow for them.

[Crow's Eye]

Has been made slower and clunkier.

Has removed a lot of execution requirements.

Has removed a ton of moves or changed properties of iconic ones (I.e. Zato drill doesn't hit low anymore so noobs don't have to block low midscreen).

Insane damage values for the simplest of combos. Now anyone can convert any stray hit into 50% damage. More chances for noobs to luck out a win.

Defense and offense both required work. Now offense is braindead and defense is a lot more guess heavy. Kinda like SFV.

Big dumb buttons and moves like Sol 6P, Ram Slash, May dolphins that you just throw out all the time for huge reward.

And there are so many people who never played GG telling you how this was needed and why it's better. While being also completely clueless when talking about the older games. It's hillarious.

[Juuken]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Some people stating this game is dumbed down, is completely irrelevant to players who are new to Guilty Gear. Strive is still more complex than most of the other known fighting games. So, if you're toying with the thought of buying it and if you like to find out intricacies, this game could be for you.

[The_Dybbuk_King]

When Street Fighter 4 was coming out, all the 3S players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about parrys being gone and all this other nonsense. Then when 5 came out, SF4 players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about changing the system mechanics (everybody was right to be mad about the launch though, let’s be real). When Guilty Gear Sign/Xrd came out, all the AC players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about simplifications and YRC. And look, Strive came out and they are making the SAME EXACT complaints. “cHaNgE bAd”


I sleep.

Give it 3 months, these trolls will mostly disappear into the shadows again, only to rear their deformed heads again when something else incredibly stupid is needed to be said.

[[TE] Kuraudo]

Originally posted by The_Dybbuk_King:

When Street Fighter 4 was coming out, all the 3S players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about parrys being gone and all this other nonsense. Then when 5 came out, SF4 players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about changing the system mechanics (everybody was right to be mad about the launch though, let’s be real). When Guilty Gear Sign/Xrd came out, all the AC players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about simplifications and YRC. And look, Strive came out and they are making the SAME EXACT complaints. “cHaNgE bAd”


I sleep.

Give it 3 months, these trolls will mostly disappear into the shadows again, only to rear their deformed heads again when something else incredibly stupid is needed to be said.

They're not wrong though: the game is simplified and losing a lot of its identity. That's better for players like me, but there is a reason people were STILL playing accent core even when Xrd was at its height; hell, look at the steam numbers now: 171 people playing an old fighting game: that's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy.

As I said and as these guys point out: the game has been dumbed down. The franchise they fell in love with changed too much.

It's good for us: I've been playing GG since xbox live midnight carnival (not a psone chad and we had no idea what we were doing haha), but Strive is vastly preferable to me. I want to play GG in terms of characters and general anime fighter-ness, not because of the high execution requirements of past titles.

My point is, their wails of loss are legitimate even if we can't understand why they prefer the older entries.

Originally posted by Constantine:

Originally posted by TE Kuraudo:

No I get it: you guys definitely got shafted. "Right direction" in this case means expanding the audience which means more money.
Thing is, there are a lot of people like me who always wanted to play Guilty Gear, but haven't touched Xrd because of the high execution requirements. Should we be catered to? It's a hard question: on the one hand, what made guilty gear special really was that high skill ceiling, right? On the other hand, money. This happens to a lot of franchises, but I feel like fighting games benefit from a certain balance where scrubs can feel good about hitting a simple bnb 90% of the time (we'll still drop it under pressure) and making it accessible. I think Strive's systems are definitely less complex than Xrd, but a lot of that is also tied heavily into execution. Roman Cancels aren't so bad, especially since you can macro them to a button.

Maybe, they should have done this to BlazBlue and kept guilty gear as the highly technical fighter; I feel for you OG players. I feel like my enjoyment is directly harming yours and it's not a clean feeling.

Pft screw that. Ogs can suck my ♥♥♥♥ lol. They may have worked for it, but they're still a thousand times better at these kinds of games than I will ever be, so I can't feel even a hint of sorrow for them.

It's the same situation for me in terms of skill gap, but when you've tasted mastery of a complex system and then that system only exists in a game no one plays, it's easy to sympathize with those players.
Here's another datapoint: a lot of the OG GG crowd aren't even very good: like they're bad at fighting games in general to the point where they'll lose to, say, a May player spamming dolphin (TOTSUGEKIIIII!!). Still, they mastered the combos, setups, advanced systems, and more. They might lose a lot, but they still get a feeling of mastery for having mastered the systems. For a brief time, I felt what that was like in Melty Blood and it's an indescribably good feeling even when you lose: just the ability to show off what you learned both to yourself and the peanut gallery.

There's a clip somewhere on twitch when persona arena first hit stateside: new players were just meming Chie and Elizabeth without really understanding why they were winning. In comes this Aegis player who just gets bodied over and over again. Dude is clearly nervous and he's dropping opportunities left and right. Last set, he finally manages to connect a combo that looks impressive as hell and stream was like "DOOOD my man's got combos!" Still loses, but guy types out in chat "that felt amazing."

It's like that.

[Constantine]

Meh. I have never once experienced mastery of any kind over a fighting game, and I never will.

[HeisenBurger]

Originally posted by TE Kuraudo:

Originally posted by MixMツ:

the same people calling it dumbed down are below floor 7

factually incorrect. Dumbed down isn't a bad thing. Compare this game with Xrd or Accent Core and try and tell me it has the same level of complexity with a straight face. Lots of people really dig this type of game that's closer to SF4/5 in terms of lower complexity than older GG's. GG boomers will snub it and deride it for having less mechanics, lower execution requirements, and stripped down characters: these are all true statements. However, the amount of new players who are able to pick the game up and have fun with it compared to older titles precisely because of GG's famous high execution requirements and high complexity being discarded speaks volumes.

Strive is a blast and definitely is taking the series in the right direction: less complex and lower execution is a GOOD thing when you look at what this series used to be like. There is reason KOF never overtook street fighter and it wasn't lack of quality.

a good take? what?

[Pecsi]

Originally posted by Constantine:

Meh. I have never once experienced mastery of any kind over a fighting game, and I never will.

???????
lol
but yeah, it feels dumped down because people was up to highly demanding mechanics and complicated excecution that "gave it's indentity"

But also, it was still a niche and no one can argue that.
So as said, the game took the path of appealing the masses to get more adepts and money, things changes over time

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Originally posted by TE Kuraudo:

who have no idea what frame data is, what 'plus on block,' 'minus on block,' 'whiff,' or 'footsies' mean.

My gen - we used to get beat up and our masculinity challenged with that kinda talk.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Originally posted by Constantine:

Originally posted by SmellTheJava:

Max is as much as a veteran as a kid mashing on a controller for years without learning anything about the games he plays.

Aw come on, you can be a veteran and not be good. In fact most people who play fighting games aren't good if ranking statistics are anything to go by.

For rankings and ratings the game should have a tick list it measures you by DURING the battle.

-Executes x number of X?
-Number of times combo repeated penalty
-Made good use of arena
-Time spent cornering penalty

etc

[Tyrone Biggums]

Originally posted by Darunia:

I never played the other guilty games so I was curious since this is my first one? Does the community not like it?

games dumbed down but HCBF still exists yeah u lost me lol