Feedback wanted: potential changes to the Electricity system

[spajus]

Hey all! I am considering a big rewrite of the electricity system as the current one has some issues when it reaches certain scale. I have a plan that would make the electricity system much simpler and orders of magnitude faster, at the cost of cutting off several "smart" features:

1. Matter reactors / nuclear reactors would always produce electricity, the excess would be lost (meaning potentially wasted materials)
2. Research would not run if it cannot consume the full required energy amount (now it runs, just slower)

There may be a couple more edge cases, but this should mostly be it.

Losing the "smart" production of non-renewable energy would actually add an interesting gameplay dynamic where you as a player would have to keep an eye on your reactors and turn them off if you have enough solar power or other types of renewable energy.

As of research, it will be undergoing bigger changes and will likely require something other than "time + electricity" to unlock the tech, so this would be a temporary inconvenience.

Let me know if you would be OK with the simplified but much faster electricity system at the cost of cutting a couple of those "smart" features mentioned above.

[zytukin]

Don't really agree with 1. We have space flight and intergalactic travel but would have to micromanage powerplants? We wouldn't be able to basically feed less material into a matter reactor to produce less power? Nuclear reactors aren't all or nothing either, their power output depends on how far the rods are in or out.

A compromise for 1 could be a built in battery for the power plants that can store at least the total output of the power plants max fuel. It burns the full fuel to fill the internal battery, then when the battery gets low a work order is created to add more fuel.

Or some type of system tha can be researched and built to automate turning on and off power plants based on the total remaining capacity of batteries that players have built on that grid (ie, total battery charge under 10%, supply fuel to powerplants until the batteries are at 90%). This requires adding things like sensors and various IF/OR/etc switches so players could set up automation. Could be used for other stuff as well like conserving power by turning on/off defenses and shields when meteors or enemies are detected.

See no issue with 2. Your home computer wont run slower if it can't get enough power due to overloading an outlet. It just wont run at all. For research, instead of only power and time perhaps it could also require materials used to construct stuff it unlocks? The computer is experimenting with those materials to design the thing that gets unlocked until it succeeds and the research is unlocked after x time.

[spajus]

Originally posted by zytukin:

Don't really agree with 1. We have space flight and intergalactic travel but would have to micromanage powerplants? We wouldn't be able to basically feed less material into a matter reactor to produce less power? Nuclear reactors aren't all or nothing either, their power output depends on how far the rods are in or out.

A compromise for 1 could be a built in battery for the power plants that can store at least the total output of the power plants max fuel. It burns the full fuel to fill the internal battery, then when the battery gets low a work order is created to add more fuel.

Or some type of system tha ca be researched and built to automate turning on and off power plants based on the charge of batteries that players have built. Such as adding things like sensors and various IF/OR/etc switches so players could set up automation.

See no issue with 2. Your home computer wont run slower if it can't get enough power due to overloading an outlet. It just wont run at all.

I don't really like the idea of a "built-in battery", but you would be incentivized to build actual standalone batteries to absorb the excess power.

As a compromise I could also make a controllable power output for nuclear reactors, so you would be able to reduce the output manually to conserve energy.

[Nakir]

I'm a big fan of performance enhancements but the cost of the "smart" fuel drain doesnt make sense to me, you figure an ai inhabiting a ship would understand how to throttle the power generation since even a rudimentary gas generator can do stuff like this today. But if it's necessary maybe some form of logic interaction with existing batteries so we can buffer the power and automatically shut off the generators when they're full.

Is the loss of the smart features a technical issue or a design choice?

[zytukin]

Originally posted by spajus:

Originally posted by zytukin:

Don't really agree with 1. We have space flight and intergalactic travel but would have to micromanage powerplants? We wouldn't be able to basically feed less material into a matter reactor to produce less power? Nuclear reactors aren't all or nothing either, their power output depends on how far the rods are in or out.

A compromise for 1 could be a built in battery for the power plants that can store at least the total output of the power plants max fuel. It burns the full fuel to fill the internal battery, then when the battery gets low a work order is created to add more fuel.

Or some type of system tha ca be researched and built to automate turning on and off power plants based on the charge of batteries that players have built. Such as adding things like sensors and various IF/OR/etc switches so players could set up automation.

See no issue with 2. Your home computer wont run slower if it can't get enough power due to overloading an outlet. It just wont run at all.

I don't really like the idea of a "built-in battery", but you would be incentivized to build actual standalone batteries to absorb the excess power.

As a compromise I could also make a controllable power output for nuclear reactors, so you would be able to reduce the output manually to conserve energy.

An upgrade chip is another option. No smart system by default, you have to research smart systems, buy/build the upgrade module, and apply it to the power plant so it wont run continuously.

This could possibly be extended to manufacturing buildings as well. They produce forever until givin a smart system upgrade that lets you use the current inventory limit settings.

[spajus]

Originally posted by Nakir:

Is the loss of the smart features a technical issue or a design choice?

I'm only in the early planning / experiment phase right now. Removing the "smart" production would simplify the simulation a whole lot from technical perspective, "produce and forget" has much less logic involved than what I currently have, which is "produce, then try to run all consumption, then try to unproduce back if production exceeds consumption, but also unproduce in certain order, so the reactors with lower production priority will get back their energy first". The simpler the logic, the easier it is to implement and optimize, the less bugs it will have, etc.

But I do get the point of extra micromanagement, that's why I brought this up for discussion. And so far it seems I'll have to somehow keep the smart production (which isn't impossible, just will make it a bit harder for me).

[shachar2like]

I don't see it as too big of a deal. I thought that first generation nuclear reactors generated %0 or %100 anyway (or they simply take a lot of time to reactivate)

What zytukin proposed is baed on Minecraft where you can build smart switches & logic using various simple devices.

#2 (research requires the full energy requirement) would be an interesting change for the short term until research is changed.

at worst case you can put it in beta testing (or Gamma testing?) for a while, see how people react to it or how the meta-game evolves.

[spajus]

Extra feedback from Discord:

I dislike the proposed changes, larger ships can have dozens of nuclear reactors to power everything, having to micromanage whether or not my reactors are draining my fuel supply for no reason doesn’t sound like a fun gameplay mechanic, it sounds like guaranteed frustration, especially since uranium is a rarer resource and is starting to be used for more recipes instead of just for fuel.

[shachar2like]

Originally posted by spajus:

Originally posted by Nakir:

Is the loss of the smart features a technical issue or a design choice?

Removing the "smart" production would simplify the simulation a whole lot from technical perspective, "produce and forget" has much less logic involved than what I currently have, which is "produce, then try to run all consumption, then try to unproduce back if production exceeds consumption, but also unproduce in certain order, so the reactors with lower production priority will get back their energy first". The simpler the logic, the easier it is to implement and optimize, the less bugs it will have, etc.

I wonder if the reverse is easier: a building go around "asking" if an electrical generator have enough energy to borrow from. Then simulation is needed only if something changes (like in power generation or when adding a consumer/producer/electrical line etc)

[TeeBee30]

I'm opposed to both ideas as well... but I offer alternatives:
1. Get rid of matter reactors entirely, buff the solar generation and later, when you have access to nuclear power, make OP RTGs (Radioisotope thermoelectric generator) or even go fusion reactor which could also be full on/off but you would need to harvest fuel from a star (maybe even research heat shield to be able to withstand the temperatures of star proximity). The fusion reactors would need to have massive internal buffers for fuel
2. How about reversing the whole power needs for research? You would need to have the power required in your battery buffers when you initiate the research, it will research it instantly but after that it will go in a cooldown phase (a lot of balancing required for this one).

[rj1963]

I'm not a big fan of #1 either because I can see player overload becoming an issue at crucial times. Just now I was trying to expand my ship while waiting for a storage capsule to be opened and then had an attack by a faction arrive in a pod. Fortunately the capsule had C42 inside it which detonated and killed the attacking faction. If I'd had an incoming meteor shower instead of the faction attack trying to power up the reactors to operate the quantum barriers might have been something I missed while I searched for the source of the attack or incoming meteors.

Some new types of reactor choices would be good such as the aforementioned fusion reactors which could be fuelled by the particle collectors.

As for #2, I'd have to wait and see what effect that may have. Maybe research stations could have more use with upgrades available to produce higher levels of research? It would also give the humans something to do other than going crazy and destroying things or starting a mutiny.

[UNG_God]

1- i am totally against it with the CURRENT system, most game where this happens, i played a lot of gregtech btw, the power generation is more time stronger than the consumption is, so one small reactor would need to be able to supply 10 or more common used machinery, and in that regard batteries also store a lot more power, so we would need to bring those up to match, and as said, we will need a system to monitor and manage the on/off of said power generation, it looks complex with a lot of stuff, but at first can be a simple, "refill every x minutes", since we will know for sure how long a fuel last and how much power it gives, making that math is simple, and later on we could use the complex RS-latch 10%-90%. Also would require creating more power generator as only 3 types of fuel based are lame, and in most game voltage is taking in account, some even amperage, so adding LV-MV-Hv-Ev would require abandoning the wireless system or make it end game.

2- we had it in the past, and was troublesome, we can manage it more easily now, so taking this step back would require some changes, first is removing the power from the grind, making specific batteries for research and only research, since most of it is done by ship computers and research station, they would need to have an internal battery that need to be filled, having access to upgrades to increase said storage, and when the amount is reach, it starts to run, but this will make parallel research more difficult or even impossible. In this case i would like to choose between modes, a normal one using default, overclocked double power need but half time, underclocked half power required but double time.

[Rainy Days]

I think I could be okay with it if it were possible to pin the electricity grid graph to the hud so I can more easily monitor electricity output vs consumption at all times.

[TeeBee30]

Originally posted by Rainy Days:

I think I could be okay with it if it were possible to pin the electricity grid graph to the hud so I can more easily monitor electricity output vs consumption at all times.

Or better yet... how about in the top-right corner, between the day counter and the clock (or somewhere in that area) a color coded power counter - green for net gain, red for net loss and white 0 for equilibrium (for when your batteries are full)

[Talon]

I think 2 is completely fine. 1 however is sort of difficult I think it is fine, if there is a "compromise". What came to my mind wozld be a sort pf "Power manager" where you can connect two grids and adjust the production/comsumption of All generators on one grid with one slider. This wouldn't make overhead to annoying to deal with but also give a bit of a challenge. Also we would have to organize power generation better (I.e one grid per type)

[Profugo Barbatus]

I'm not a fan of seeing smart generation go away - It would strongly discourage me from having a varied powergrid, in favor of the simplest, most braindead one I can get to avoid having to micromanage in the first place. Rather than power being an active planning and passive execution puzzle, it becomes a pain of juggling stuff and remembering to constantly check outputs.

I do want to say that its not important for the simulation to be perfectly smart though - I just want to minimize power wastage, not completely zero it out, without micro. If I have a bank of 20 gens, and need 10.5 gens of power, I don't mind if 11 run full rip. I just don't want to see all 20 running because I didn't micro, and I don't see why I'd want all 20 running at just over 50% yield - I'd save a few bits of matter, but not enough to be of consequence, and it sounds like the compute of that is not at all worth it.