Causes for rollbacks in online

[Heavymetalmixer]

This is a pretty good video that summarizes what usually makes online matches go wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWkDU1YQTtE

[UrbanMech]

So basically people complaining that the game is unplayable online and the netcode is garbage are on wifi

[Heavymetalmixer]

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

So basically people complaining that the game is unplayable online and the netcode is garbage are on wifi

Something the guy didn't mention is players having a PC not fast enough to run the game at 60 FPS all the time, that makes any FG online run like crap.

[Heavymetalmixer]

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

So basically people complaining that the game is unplayable online and the netcode is garbage are on wifi

Also bear in mind: This video is for "sure causes" that make the netcode be bad, but sometimes even with the best conditions for both players the netcode can go nuts too, which is a bug.

[WizardOfAus]

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

Also bear in mind: This video is for "sure causes" that make the netcode be bad, but sometimes even with the best conditions for both players the netcode can go nuts too, which is a bug.

And strictly speaking, all he showed was that packet loss was a bit problem with the netcode. Even wired connections can have packet loss (wifi is just much worse).

In any case, if the devs felt so compelled to have netcodes built the way it is, there should be a giant disclaimer that says don't buy this if you are on wifi. wifi is common place these days (it's not 2000s), you can't just pretend everyone should be on a wired connection. Most other fighting games work fine on wifi (even in that video).

[Sylpheed]

Originally posted by WizardOfAus:

In any case, if the devs felt so compelled to have netcodes built the way it is, there should be a giant disclaimer that says don't buy this if you are on wifi. wifi is common place these days (it's not 2000s), you can't just pretend everyone should be on a wired connection. Most other fighting games work fine on wifi (even in that video).

I hear this a lot but honestly, if you're an avid gamer for any competitive game, wired connection is kind of mandatory. Playing casual modes / games on wifi is fine, or if it's a game that doesn't use p2p netcode so others don't have to suffer.

TL;DR Stay out of ranked if you're on wifi, please.

[veelqnexus]

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

So basically people complaining that the game is unplayable online and the netcode is garbage are on wifi

I'm one to complain here a lot recently (after last patch and sorry btw, I get salty especially when I see Stockholm syndrome "this is fine" comments) and my internet is pretty good (with ethernet cable). This isn't all about wifi and potato PCs. There is definetely something wrong with netcode and what makes me complain most is the fact MBTL worked best on steam after 1st patch. Now, it's way worse.

[WizardOfAus]

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

I see Stockholm syndrome "this is fine" comments) and my internet is pretty good

Pretty much this, people trying to defend a company that's lied to get sales, but no it's apparently the fault of consumer. They need better PC/internet or whatever. If a game says it can be played on certain specs then it needs to be able played.

Originally posted by Witch:

I hear this a lot but honestly, if you're an avid gamer for any competitive game, wired connection is kind of mandatory.

Other than the fact this statement is wrong since plenty of games run well on wifi. This is the equivalent to buying frozen chips from the supermarket which says you can just microwave it then finding out you really should put it in an oven. "any avid cook should know they need an oven".

[Red]

Originally posted by WizardOfAus:

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

I see Stockholm syndrome "this is fine" comments) and my internet is pretty good

Pretty much this, people trying to defend a company that's lied to get sales, but no it's apparently the fault of consumer. They need better PC/internet or whatever. If a game says it can be played on certain specs then it needs to be able played.

Originally posted by Witch:

I hear this a lot but honestly, if you're an avid gamer for any competitive game, wired connection is kind of mandatory.

Other than the fact this statement is wrong since plenty of games run well on wifi. This is the equivalent to buying frozen chips from the supermarket which says you can just microwave it then finding out you really should put it in an oven. "any avid cook should know they need an oven".

The thing is, most other game genres typically have ways to account for framerate drops, low upload speed, packet loss, and other forms of lag, to try and compensate it. But it's not always perfect (you can have rubberbanding, hits registering when they shouldn't, and other stuff), and more often than not it uses a server-client system (where the host usually determines whether to accept incoming changes or not). Fighting games though use peer-to-peer and require both players to have the exact same local state, so they need to be synchronised. Rollback is a way to compensate issues to an extent, but ideally you'd want to play without framerate drops and with minimal packet loss in order to keep everything smooth on both ends.

Now I agree this is no excuse for the state the game currently is on Steam (it's really unpolished and could have used lots of Beta testing to fix things before the actual release), and network mode is definitely currently broken due to the latest patch (and not just because of bad hardware or Wi-Fi). However it doesn't invalidate that one should ensure they have the right setup to avoid issues when playing online.

[WizardOfAus]

Originally posted by Red:

Fighting games though use peer-to-peer and require both players to have the exact same local state, so they need to be synchronised. Rollback is a way to compensate issues to an extent, but ideally you'd want to play without framerate drops and with minimal packet loss in order to keep everything smooth on both ends.

I understand the technicalities. I wasn't comparing to other genres, I play heaps of fighting games and this has to be the worst by far for online. I'm sure some individuals may have different specific experience, but even in the video that was posted where they tested strife on pretty horrendous settings and massive packet loss, the game was still playable. Which just indicates it's bad by todays gaming standards

Now I agree this is no excuse for the state the game currently is on Steam (it's really unpolished and could have used lots of Beta testing to fix things before the actual release), and network mode is definitely currently broken due to the latest patch (and not just because of bad hardware or Wi-Fi). However it doesn't invalidate that one should ensure they have the right setup to avoid issues when playing online.

Sort of agree. But how does one decide what the right level of quality the set ups needs to be? If you're system meets the requirements laid out by the game then it should be able to play it at say lowest settings. At the moment people with decent PCs etc can't even play it.

Unfortunately as someone who's new to this franchise, at the moment I can't see it going anywhere other than the hype wearing off, people getting frustrated and leaving, and what you have left is a small group of hardcore fans who would have bought the game even if it was built on some 1990s engine.

[Red]

Originally posted by WizardOfAus:

Originally posted by Red:

Fighting games though use peer-to-peer and require both players to have the exact same local state, so they need to be synchronised. Rollback is a way to compensate issues to an extent, but ideally you'd want to play without framerate drops and with minimal packet loss in order to keep everything smooth on both ends.

I understand the technicalities. I wasn't comparing to other genres, I play heaps of fighting games and this has to be the worst by far for online. I'm sure some individuals may have different specific experience, but even in the video that was posted where they tested strife on pretty horrendous settings and massive packet loss, the game was still playable. Which just indicates it's bad by todays gaming standards

Now I agree this is no excuse for the state the game currently is on Steam (it's really unpolished and could have used lots of Beta testing to fix things before the actual release), and network mode is definitely currently broken due to the latest patch (and not just because of bad hardware or Wi-Fi). However it doesn't invalidate that one should ensure they have the right setup to avoid issues when playing online.

Sort of agree. But how does one decide what the right level of quality the set ups needs to be? If you're system meets the requirements laid out by the game then it should be able to play it at say lowest settings. At the moment people with decent PCs etc can't even play it.

Unfortunately as someone who's new to this franchise, at the moment I can't see it going anywhere other than the hype wearing off, people getting frustrated and leaving, and what you have left is a small group of hardcore fans who would have bought the game even if it was built on some 1990s engine.

My bad, I misread your previous posts and thought you said "most other games work fine on wifi" (not just fighting games). Still leaving my comment here in case someone tries to bring up other genres into the mix, since fighting games have fundamentally different requirements.

I haven't watched the video yet, but it does sound like MBTL's implementation of rollback is sub-optimal. Also GGST's netcode was designed by Zinac (who had already worked on Killer Instinct), so maybe that's part of why it's much more polished and playable even in fairly terrible scenarios.

About hardware though, I haven't seen many reports of people being unable to play the game properly even with decent rigs on these forums, but that's not to say they don't exist. As you said, it should be fine as long as your computer meets the minimal requirements detailed by the development team, but even then they're often exaggerated. Unfortunately there will sometimes be hardware-specific issues that will absolutely prevent part of the playerbase from playing the game, but as far as I know it's not the case here.

Also to me the bar for minimal requirements is "being able to hold a steady 60fps both offline and online with at least Steam running in the background", while the minimum level of polish should be "no game-breaking bugs at launch, and especially not in network mode".

Now, even though I have only played offline for now, I definitely agree that network mode having issues despite updates likely already killed the hype for a good chunk of the playerbase (at least on PC), and will keep chipping away at it until things are fixed. Especially considering the overall sub-par state of this PC version.

[toasted]

game is pretty good but more than half my matches are people teleporting around the screen I can only play in lobbies cuz of all the wifi warriors makes me not really wanna bother playing

[toasted]

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

So basically people complaining that the game is unplayable online and the netcode is garbage are on wifi

its the opposite the people on wifi will have it run smooth for them and laggy for their opponent because of the way wifi functions (half duplex) and the netcode for this game (ggpo)

[WizardOfAus]

Originally posted by toasted:

Originally posted by NuclearPenguin:

So basically people complaining that the game is unplayable online and the netcode is garbage are on wifi

its the opposite the people on wifi will have it run smooth for them and laggy for their opponent because of the way wifi functions (half duplex) and the netcode for this game (ggpo)

Ye basically this. The code rolls you back because your in front which means your system is running better.

[toasted]

wizard got his clown shoes on