Guess v. reaction

[RoughMountain]

Drive impact, drive rush added new possibilities to SF.

I've seem a lot of players, even pros, struggling when put into a corner, feeling like it's more a guess game than reaction. SF games had four options for defense: standing attack/crouching attack, overhead, jumping, or throw. Each one of these still give some time for reaction. Now we have DI and Parry as options. The corner game seems more accidental than reactive. A lot of throw loops, matches ending with perfect KO, characters with strong corner carriers, and others not so much, confusing trades, characters jumping out and taking DP in the back.

Opinions?

[Yann]

I just try my best to avoid the corner, otherwise it's hell.
I'd rather jump away and eat an AA, than being stuck in there, and if I ever do get there, I drive reversal the first chance I get to get out of there.

[Flash stopper]

The game is built around throw loops since pressure has been largely homogenised, it's also general consensus that if you get cornered you stand to lose, it's not a fun position in other sf games but it's particularly bad here. I'm unsure what you mean by confusing trades.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by RoughMountain:

Each one of these still give some time for reaction.
Opinions?

no. you were never reacting to throws to tech them. you tech via reading the situation and your opponents habits to get a feel for when they are coming. you aren't teching a 5 frame throw on reaction in streetfighter.
much like you aren't blocking a 8-9 frame medium low on reaction when you're walking back.

Jump ins plenty slow enough to react to with an AA.
the success rate of using a normal or even some specials as an AA is on you and your positioning / timing with the option you chose. some choices will lose, some will trade, some will whiff entirely and others will always work clean if you are positioned and timed right for the option you decided to go with.

overheads have always been slow enough to block on reaction.

DI being even slower than overheads also easily blocked or counter DI'd on reaction. (or parry'd if you don't have the HP left to counter DI.

crosscut DP's are a skill to do exactly that. catch people that try jump out or cross you up with a jump in at closer range. do them wrong and your DP will go in the wrong direction and you'll get punished for the whiff.

the higher you go the less useful DI is and the more of a risk throwing it out becomes.
the only way to reliably land a DI in high level play is to pressure and mix them so hard to a point where their focus considering DI as an option completely lapses.
this is a strategy that's used not for just DI but pretty much anything. you can do the same thing with never jumping while your are piling on the pressure and then out of the blue you jump and because the focus has been so set on the grounded pressure watching for a jump in left their minds and the opponent cant react fast enough to AA anymore.

you also forgot command grabs that remove the ability to tech as an option.

as for the corner. the corner is always dangerous in every 2d fighting game or being backed against the wall in in a 3d fighter like Tekken
if you get manoeuvred to and get stuck in the corner. your opponent is just playing better than you. practice more and work out what your doing wrong for it to happen.

[Lysamus]

Corner sucks in all fighting games. It's really bad in SF6, but it's pretty bad in general, so it's sort of like comparing 100 to 110 Fahrenheit weather (38 - 43 Celcius)

While I more often guess than react if I'm cornered, I'll also try to condition. If I wake up EX DP a few times in a match for example, whether or not it works, I'm teaching my opponent that I tend to do that, which means the next time I'm waking up in a corner, I can guess they're going to wait for that DP again and that reduces the # of options I need to anticipate.

[RoughMountain]

Originally posted by Oracular Spectacular:

I'm unsure what you mean by confusing trades.

I mean one tries to get out with a strike, but end up trading blows. Trades seem to happen more in this game, so what would be a get out results in a tie (both losing life, one still stuck), or even losing a match (whoever is cornered has few HP, and remains outbalanced).

[RoughMountain]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

Originally posted by RoughMountain:

Each one of these still give some time for reaction.
Opinions?

no. you were never reacting to throws to tech them. you tech via reading the situation and your opponents habits to get a feel for when they are coming. you aren't teching a 5 frame throw on reaction in streetfighter.

you also forgot command grabs that remove the ability to tech as an option.

if you get manoeuvred to and get stuck in the corner. your opponent is just playing better than you. practice more and work out what your doing wrong for it to happen.

If one learns to read the opponent, one is surely reacting.

Command grabs count as throws, since one possible answer is the same: jump and hit.

I find very hard to decide that if the one who gets stuck in the corner is playing worse, mainly when some characters have strong corner carriers against others than don't.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by RoughMountain:

Originally posted by Oracular Spectacular:

I'm unsure what you mean by confusing trades.

I mean one tries to get out with a strike, but end up trading blows. Trades seem to happen more in this game, so what would be a get out results in a tie (both losing life, one still stuck), or even losing a match (whoever is cornered has few HP, and remains outbalanced).

if hes "confused" by it. SFV was probably the first SF game he played.
SFV had a button priority system
on simultaneous hits Hard's beat Medium's beat Light's that was the design for crush-counters so heavy's stomped other inputs most of the time.

other SF games are like 6 in that strength doesn't matter and you'll trade on any simultaneous hits.

[RoughMountain]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

Originally posted by RoughMountain:

I mean one tries to get out with a strike, but end up trading blows. Trades seem to happen more in this game, so what would be a get out results in a tie (both losing life, one still stuck), or even losing a match (whoever is cornered has few HP, and remains outbalanced).

if hes "confused" by it. SFV was probably the first SF game he played.
SFV had a button priority system
on simultaneous hits Hard's beat Medium's beat Light's that was the design for crush-counters so heavy's stomped other inputs most of the time.

other SF games are like 6 in that strength doesn't matter and you'll trade on any simultaneous hits.

Alpha 3 is the king of priorities in SF. Actually that is the one I've played most, followed by II and III. Don't try to make assumptions, surreptitiously inferiorizing people.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by RoughMountain:

Alpha 3 is the king priorities in SF. Actually that is the one I've played most, followed by II and III. Don't try to make assumptions, surreptitiously inferiorizing people.

but the alpha series has no button priority system to decide the winner of same-frame trades (least alpha 2 doesn't that's my fave of the alpha series). thats what i was saying that was for SFV which is why i made that 'assumption' lol

as far as i know SFV and 3rd strike were the only SF games that had button priority for simultaneous hits.

all the other SF games its just hit box vs hit box and if the active frame boxes collide you get trades just like sf6

[Castyles]

According to my statistics I have 10 points on "cornering" and 2 on "getting cornered".

Skill issue.

And again. If ya'll think getting cornered on SF6 is THAT bad, go play MK11.

[bulldog0890]

its definitely more stilted towards reaction time than previous sf games. It feels like a major reflex test a lot of the time. obviously reading that a drive impact or rush is coming helps, but sometimes even knowing they're gonna do it I still fail to react fast enough with my old man reflexes

[RoughMountain]

Originally posted by Castyles:

According to my statistics I have 10 points on "cornering" and 2 on "getting cornered".

Skill issue.

And again. If ya'll think getting cornered on SF6 is THAT bad, go play MK11.

Nice stats. So we and the pros have skill issue, but you're doing fine? Please, send me your profile name, I want to add you to learn from your replays.

[Shoah Kahn]

"Death Corners" in SF6 live up to the name. I just watch a set between Daigo's Ken and some other dude's Jamie, and whenever one of them was cornered, you could see their thousands of hours of honed reactions and motor skills mostly go out of the window, as they patently guess and even mashed random moves (assuming they just didn't block). Then you have Daigo's obnoxious DR > throw mic-ups, while in and of themselves demonstrate how cheap DR's are proving to be; let alone, the DI's, corners, jabs etc....

[doomleika]

There's a move called drive reversal.

[RoughMountain]

Originally posted by doomleika:

There's a move called drive reversal.

That's a good answer to relieve pressure. But for that one has to succeed in block, and 2.5 drive is needed.