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Discussions Rules and Guidelines
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The only thing I would add is that mortars are a useful source of smoke and can be used to mask dangerous enemy units. So for example if a tank is hit and stunned, a mortar smoke round can potentially buy it some time by blocking enemy fire. Likewise, putting smoke on an enemy anti-tank gun can seriously degrade its capability while you then build up your spotting bonus.
I think counter-mortar fire is a judgement call. Definitely worth doing if you have spotted an enemy mortar but the opportunity cost of firing at potentially empty enemy hexes rather than targeting spotted units is quite high. My preferred approach is to target AI units which can spot and make them priority targets; by neutralising them you effectively blind the enemy mortars and make them much less dangerous.
Two good points, I will try to update the guide if possible.
Also, I have a few notes that you might want to add :
RANGE ... On-board mortar SMOKE for 2-in and 60mm is unlimited.
SPOTTING .... The new % for the hex not being spotted is 3% (that never grows). Mortar teams are unable to spot for each other.
True, and some players might not realise that. I wonder if that is a bug though?
Ah yes, I had forgotten the 3%.
I hadn't realised that Mortar teams can't spot for each other, good call. But I think the off map mortar team can, I will have to check.
That does sound like a bug. On a related topic, I only noticed recently how much Tom has nerfed the M2 60mm mortar. In the game it has a range of 45 tiles (360 - 450m, depending on how you calculate range). In real life it has a range of 1,800m (equivalent to 180 - 270 tiles) - quite a substantial difference. I think he did the same to the 81mm mortar but it still covers nearly the whole board anyway.
At the risk of being misquoted by Spike ad nauseam, there are changes which could be made to improve the depiction of mortars:
- 2” mortar, spotted fire only and limited to 11 bombs (9 HE, 2 smoke)
- 60mm mortar, spotted fire only, increase range to 180 tiles.
- 81mm mortar (onboard), spotted fire only, increase range to 250 tiles. (Worth noting that Tom never introduced the 81mm mortar (Kurz) - a smaller version, used by the Fallschirmjager.
There’s probably also an argument for off-board mortars having a cool-down period - so after you fire three times (to depict a fire mission), the observer cannot call in fire for a couple of turns. It would make them a little less powerful and reduce the AI’s near constant use of mortar fire.
1- 2-inch and 60mm teams carried no radios did they, so show would they contact a forward spotter?
As i've said before, the devs should make them direct-fire weapons only, requiring LOS to the target hex.
BRIT 2-inch- [img]https://i.ibb.co/pbW8fDX/Brit-2-inch-mortar-1.jpg[/img]
US 60mm- [img]https://i.ibb.co/wNY8m2pr/60mm-M2-Mortar.jpg[/img]
2- You once said of 8cm and 3-inch medium mortars "They have no place on the Troop map" and I agree with you, as their huge range meant they could be kept safely well behind the front line..:)
PS- In every wargame i've played over the past 43 years, the standard German medium mortar was the 81mm, yet the Troop devs call it the 8cm (80mm), why is that?
The 60mm mortar was usually operated as a company asset in a battery of three tubes. They were equipped with walkie talkies and radio. So, yes, they could have their fire observed and adjusted.
The 2” mortar was a platoon weapon, and operated as part of the platoon headquarters. It could fire indirectly and adjustments could be made by voice or hand signals or relay (runner). But it didn’t have access to radio spotted fire / adjustments.
Ideally, if the Troop had command & control which delineated platoons, just a platoon HQ could spot for its own 2” mortar. But I don’t think Tom wants to introduce additional complexity to the game by having that kind of command and control.
The short answer is that I was wrong. The longer answer is that the 81mm mortar was usually a battalion asset and located 1,000 - 1,500 metres behind the front line. However, some German units, notably SS panzergrenadier battalions, were equipped with and operated the 81mm mortar at the company level. And I’ve also come across historical incidents where 81mm mortars were located 400-500m behind the front line. So, much like John Maynard Keynes, (”When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”), I changed my mind.
Also with the introduction of Fallschirmjagers into the Troop, they operated the shortened / lightened version of the 81mm and definitely operated that closer to the frontline (I.e within the scale of the maps depicted by the Troop).
Good question, I don’t honestly know the answer. German nomenclature was to use cm rather than mm, so that’s why they wouldn’t say 81mm. But I don’t know why they didn’t say 8.1cm - maybe they felt it was a rounding error and not worth adding the .1? Your guess is as good as mine.
[img]https://i.ibb.co/3YyJwW6j/Mortar-how.jpg[/img]
That is what the Germans called it. It's official name was 8cm Granatwerfer 34.
It seems to have been quite common for armies to round down the actual calibre of their mortars. Did you know the British Ordnance ML 3-inch mortar was actually 3.19 inches in calibre?
Yes, I did know that. Mainly because in Advanced Squad Leader the 3” mortar was erroneously depicted as a 76mm mortar rather than 81mm. Basically the game designers took the 3” at face value. They spotted their error.. ..eventually.
The enemy is beyond those woods. You can see the woods, so adjust to lob the bombs beyond the woods.
The enemy is between the house and the woods. You can see the roof of the house, so aim at the house and then adjust left/right/up/down.
In game, Outside the LOS, it's a 3% chance to hit the target hex with a greater chance to miss by several hexes. That's in contrary to an LOS shot, being 5% with a good chance to land in the adjacent hex.
The game should award a better chance-to-hit for the first shot, followed by a 25% for every shot when the mortar team has an LOS .... The same idea we have for AIM shooting.
In WW2 did light mortar teams really do a lot of dial-twiddling and map reading?
If the mortars had limited ammo then we would probably not waste them on an area barrage not within LOS or someone. At the moment, the game gives us the opportunity to blindly bombard.
The main issue = unlimited ammo.
Next issue = no delay after a new setup.
I even suggested an Ammunition Truck. When the team is setup adjacent to this vehicle then it gets an unlimited supply. That is a more prepared attack/defense tactic then running around with a mobile attack/defense.
That reminds me .... The Germans have been practicing tactics on the Eastern Front. One of their tactics was known as a "Mobile Defense" to support a withdraw of troops, this was back in 1943.
German mortar positions (on paper) might have begun the battle beyond 1 km, but the big question would be .... At what range did the teams begin to withdraw to the rear when the defense failed ??
IMO ... It would be ridiculous for the German teams to be "on the move" to keep an absurd distance from the front lines. They most likely had the front line measured out for the barrages at their current position. Every move to the rear "might" have been planned, meaning they fall back to a prepared position that is already "sighted-in" (so to speak) ... but I don't know.
It's important that games provide all possible options within reason. Everyone's suggestions are all valid (IMO) ... we just need optional or advanced rules to implement them for better or for worse.
They used it for more LOS operations.
TROOP's 2-inch may need a revision?
Less accurate (didn't use the sights)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TMWoinHqGU
Firing it like a grenade :
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oaOm7yS2g68
In my new opinion (points) :
1 .... The 2-Inch would be sloppy at indirect (hand held).
2 .... Fired liked the PIAT and RIfle Grenade (LOS operations).
In other words .... The 2-Inch Mortar team (Troop) would be able to fire "on the move" (within LOS) like an INF unit with a Rifle Grenade, and require a setup for Indirect usage (with horrible accuracy).