The retinue is too weak

[Captain Price]

The updated armor retinue's data is not equitable according to the real history, could you make it more powerful.

[Fortigan]

More powerful compared to what? Have you compared their stats to militia? They are wildly better.

[PocketAces]

24 upgraded retinue can take on all the raiders with minor losses, how powerful do you want them to be?

[gusgblaw]

How many points was the {defense value} of real historical retinue armor?

[TheRealMuehle]

In theory, they should be the best unit.
But to me, it seems like Spearmen are way better at holding the line
with less losses than Retinues.
Have I just been unlucky? Bad conditions like fighting uphill without realising, ect.... ?
Or are they realy more of a heavy hitter than a tank?

[Fortigan]

Originally posted by TheRealMuehle:

In theory, they should be the best unit.
But to me, it seems like Spearmen are way better at holding the line
with less losses than Retinues.
Have I just been unlucky? Bad conditions like fighting uphill without realising, ect.... ?
Or are they realy more of a heavy hitter than a tank?

They are all around a better unit, but in fewer numbers. If you pit 24 retinue up against 36 spearmen, the retinue will win. If their armor is upgraded they can also consistently beat a 36 man high end mercenary unit.

[TheRealMuehle]

Ok, then I'll have to give them another chance at the frontline.
Maybe I did something wrong.

[Ruin]

Originally posted by Fortigan:

More powerful compared to what? Have you compared their stats to militia? They are wildly better.

Originally posted by PocketAces:

24 upgraded retinue can take on all the raiders with minor losses, how powerful do you want them to be?

Yeah... When I saw the OP's comment, I had to wonder... "Compared to what exactly?"

I had a fully upgraded, full 24 man Retinue, with support from Militia Archers, stand against, and break 3 bandit groups of 18 men at once, just last night, losing only 2 of my Retinue -- the bandits caught me out of position due to being in forest, as I had misjudged where they were, as I could not see them...

Before my Militia and Mercenaries could move to aid them, they had already defeated 3 of the 4 raiding bandit groups, with the 4th being stopped by my other units...

They're certainly not under powered...

Originally posted by TheRealMuehle:

But to me, it seems like Spearmen are way better at holding the line

If what I've heard is correct, spearmen do receive an additional bonus when using the Stand Ground stance (on top of the normal defence bonus), especially receiving a charge -- which makes sense, as that is kinda the main advantage of having a spear -- but your Retinue is far stronger with the Push Forward stance...

So, ideally, you use Stand Ground when being charged, as it increases defence... Then switch to Push Forward and your Retinue will be significantly stronger combatants than Militia, and even Mercenary units...

[TheRealMuehle]

Thx, I'll try that for sure.
Push forward usually is the stance i use the least. And if so, only for the initial clash.
After that, I tend to keep my Rets on Balanced or even Stand Ground.
Next time, I'll let them use their anger 😈

[Ruin]

Originally posted by TheRealMuehle:

Thx, I'll try that for sure.
Push forward usually is the stance i use the least. And if so, only for the initial clash.
After that, I tend to keep my Rets on Balanced or even Stand Ground.
Next time, I'll let them use their anger 😈

Yeah, as I would understand it Push Forward is clearly meant as an offensive stance, as in your unit goes on the attack "pushing forward" against the enemy, but your unit doesn't pay as much attention to it's own defence...

Balanced would give no bonuses or penalties either way, where as Stand Ground increases defence, but your troops don't attack as often...

So, yeah, Stand Ground to absorb charging enemies, let the line stabilise, then Push Forward to take the fight to your opponent...

Also don't forget that positioning effects combat... Being on a hill improves defence when the enemy charges up the hill... Which also means a unit attacking down a hill has an advantage (including against you if you're defending at the bottom)...

Not sure how forests effect melee combat, but I believe Slavic has mentioned that forests have negative impacts on archers, so does poor weather...

[Furin]

They are great for charging in the back of the enemy with run/push. Breaks pretty much anything in a very short time. Spears are great for absorbing the enemy charge and tackle multiple units, then charge in the back of the enemy with the retinue or a polearm militia.

I wish they were mounted...

[Ruin]

Originally posted by Furin:

I wish they were mounted...

*Soon...

[votadc]

Aren't they with mixed weapons? They could give a switch between spear and side arm so they can be good to attack and defense and they are different from militia that can have only a weapon.
A side weapon retinue isn't that better in defense than a militia spearman for obvious reasons.

[arvine17]

Originally posted by TheRealMuehle:

Ok, then I'll have to give them another chance at the frontline.
Maybe I did something wrong.

Avoid getting flank, stretch your retinue or if you have a second army to spare guarding its flank, its a tank if max out but not invinsible to battle

[Captain Price]

Originally posted by Ruin:

Originally posted by TheRealMuehle:

Thx, I'll try that for sure.
Push forward usually is the stance i use the least. And if so, only for the initial clash.
After that, I tend to keep my Rets on Balanced or even Stand Ground.
Next time, I'll let them use their anger 😈

Yeah, as I would understand it Push Forward is clearly meant as an offensive stance, as in your unit goes on the attack "pushing forward" against the enemy, but your unit doesn't pay as much attention to it's own defence...

Balanced would give no bonuses or penalties either way, where as Stand Ground increases defence, but your troops don't attack as often...

So, yeah, Stand Ground to absorb charging enemies, let the line stabilise, then Push Forward to take the fight to your opponent...

Also don't forget that positioning effects combat... Being on a hill improves defence when the enemy charges up the hill... Which also means a unit attacking down a hill has an advantage (including against you if you're defending at the bottom)...

Not sure how forests effect melee combat, but I believe Slavic has mentioned that forests have negative impacts on archers, so does poor weather...

Actually I mean the updated armor in the history is more powerful than the militia as 3 spear team militia can take my 24 updated retinue down. However, as most militia spear men are not armored yet, so it is really confusing for me. I think if the game's author want to make a larger battle size in the future, the retinue's data must improved. However, one thing is great is that the author give the retinue to updated by their battle experience although it has not been finished yet.

[Ruin]

Originally posted by Captain Price:

Originally posted by Ruin:

Yeah, as I would understand it Push Forward is clearly meant as an offensive stance, as in your unit goes on the attack "pushing forward" against the enemy, but your unit doesn't pay as much attention to it's own defence...

Balanced would give no bonuses or penalties either way, where as Stand Ground increases defence, but your troops don't attack as often...

So, yeah, Stand Ground to absorb charging enemies, let the line stabilise, then Push Forward to take the fight to your opponent...

Also don't forget that positioning effects combat... Being on a hill improves defence when the enemy charges up the hill... Which also means a unit attacking down a hill has an advantage (including against you if you're defending at the bottom)...

Not sure how forests effect melee combat, but I believe Slavic has mentioned that forests have negative impacts on archers, so does poor weather...

Actually I mean the updated armor in the history is more powerful than the militia as 3 spear team militia can take my 24 updated retinue down. However, as most militia spear men are not armored yet, so it is really confusing for me. I think if the game's author want to make a larger battle size in the future, the retinue's data must improved. However, one thing is great is that the author give the retinue to updated by their battle experience although it has not been finished yet.

And I absolutely I would expect that 3 detachments of Mercenary Spearmen -- because that's what you were facing, Mercenaries, not Militia -- would take down a fully upgraded Retinue, as that is literally 108 (36x3) armed and armoured spearmen against 24 heavy infantry... That's over 4-1...

I'd expect just as many of your Militia to be able to defeat a Retinue just as effectively, even if not properly armoured through shear numbers, let alone if wearing gambeson, or even mail from Tier 3 homes, as that literally puts them on a similar level to basic Retinue...

They're not meant to be an I WIN!!! unit... They're an elite unit... Not an invincible unit, and are not meant to be able to take on huge numbers of well equipped enemies on their own...

My example above, of a fully upgraded Retinue standing against 3 groups of 18 bandits, was also with support from Militia Archers, against only half the enemies you've described here, and very poorly equipped enemies at that compared to Mercenary Spearmen...

And no... Slavic does not intend to make battles especially large... Historically, large battles in Medieval Europe were rare, and would generally consist of a few hundred, to maybe a few thousand soldiers in total (so counting both sides) at most, so the armies that you can amass now are already quite substantial considering you're meant to be just a lower level local Lord, not a King...

Most Lords on the level of the player in ML would have a few dozen soldiers to their name at most (your Retinue) and could then raise a local militia, often armed with nothing more than what those men had on hand (tools, pitchforks, etc) or sometimes equipped by the lord, as represented in game...

On that note, I would like to see a basic level of Militia that is unarmed, if you have the people, but not the weapons to equip them, where they use simple hand tools...