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/realistically/ (boy are gamers ever crazy about this one).. No one would purposefully aim singular rounds into your plate carrier if they're trying to kill you. So as a compromise, having lethal damage on even basic hits, is closer to realism than tanking 3-4 shots (which you currently can survive. AI is still a little ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but it's playable. Also /realistically/ you're not wearing much more than a plate carrier, which covers your lungs, heart and ribs, and a helmet. stomach hits are lethal, legs and arms are often lethal. even the force from behind a rifle round can knock your internals around or cause a heart attack, it doesn't need to penetrate to kill you or put you out of a fight. /Realistically/ this is because it's a better rule to not get hit, than to be clunky and fatigued from that weight and stress of wearing more protective gear. Not having a "Safety net" demands better preformance.
The issue is more about AI being a little ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, When they're aware of you, they're not shy about aim-botting and skimming you with a hit. Your 'Protection" healthbar is working.. it's just that they're hitting you accurately when they do shoot, and it's rarely ever just one shot.. I've turned corners to be 1-shotted a few times, and yeah.. That just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sucks. feels unfair, specially against bots.
But Zero Hour has to let bots cheat, to give them a fighting chance. all games do. For me, it's adds to it's EuroJank charm.
Yep agree on this point, getting slapped at close range with full auto rifle fire is gonna put you in a world of pain even if it doesn't tear you apart.
The problem is, I'm not talking about close range shots where the AI could easily aim for a vital unprotected spot, I'm talking about when they spot you from further away and pop a few shots off instantly, and would be aiming center mass in that situation. If they're looking at you from the front from a distance, the largest part of your body is going to be mostly covered by the ballistic plate, so there's a decent chance they'll hit it.
Here's an example of the wildly unrealistic results the current system can produce: let's say the first 2 hits you take are from an AK at a distance, but they hit where the plate should be. In real life, that could be stopped completely (and some plates can take a surprising number of hits before failing) but in game you'll be lucky to survive. Then, a bit later, someone else with an SMG or a pistol hits you in the armor again, and you're already low health, so this kills you, even though that shouldn't even penetrate the kevlar.
Do you see the problem now? Because every hit takes away a chunk of your health even if it lands in a place where the armor would stop it, you can die from the combined "damage" of hits that shouldn't even wound you. In reality, a hit that doesn't penetrate isn't going to have you "low health" and ready to be killed by the next one, unless the next round lands in exactly the same spot, and the armor isn't capable of taking multiple hits from that caliber. The issue is that the whole system is broken, and needs to be redesigned, as it's impossible to use a single health value to determine the condition of a person in body armor, as well as the condition of the armor itself. Everything is being oversimplified to the point where the armor essentially doesn't exist, and that's a huge problem in a game like this.
I'm sure a better system could be developed, that has multiple hitboxes inside other hitboxes of varying degrees of resistance, to simulate the strength of different parts of the armor against different calibers, and the kind of damage it has sustained in different areas. Each of those smaller hitboxes could have its own health, and if the same spot on the armor takes too many hits from the right caliber, it fails in that area, and then the player receives a potentially fatal wound. Hits that don't penetrate could cause a stun effect, and take away stamina, or even cause the player to go down for a brief period.
Yeah, that's a problem, but depends on how much you wanna cheat the bots, and let the bots cheat you. Sometimes janky AI is just janky AI. But there really isn't anything longer than 20 foot shots in the game, it's all super duper close.
Also you shouldn't really be calling where you get hit, Video games make that hard to call, and again, theres a lot more spots that aren't covered by a plate, than there are. Better to not get hit and not risk being hit, than believing your body armour will save you.
Can't overthink Kevlar here, it's a video game with mock realism, it's a slower, tactical game, but not a hyper realistic one.. Level 3 plates are tested on 5 rounds and they do often break. so tanking 3-4 hits is kinda realistic..
I agree with you. Also, I'd rather have a balanced gameplay for both teams rather then a "realist" swat team that would tank shots point blanks while the defenders would get shredded instantly.
If you're not convinced by the armor system, view your death from 2-3shots as you incapacitated on the ground, ears ringing and ribcage shattered by the force of the multiple impacts on your body
There are plenty of maps where the AI can engage you from a lot further away than 20 feet. Also, I don't know why anyone has to be cheated. If the body armor were modeled more realistically, the situation would play out the way it would in reality, as their shot placement would actually matter.
I'm not saying it would be impossible for the AI to hit unprotected areas, and obviously it's hard to tell exactly where you've been hit each time, but common sense dictates they they wouldn't manage to hit a vital spot every time -- especially at longer ranges -- so constantly taking severe damage when you're hit, regardless of the circumstances, points to an obvious problem with the armor modeling. It's great to have a challenge, but being so unrealistically vulnerable kinda takes away from the feeling of being an elite, heavily armored SWAT officer. I mean, your armor can't even stop pistol calibers, and It's immersion breaking.
Firstly, based on everything I've heard about this game, extreme realism was the goal. Secondly, even if it's level III, whether a ballistic plate fails depends on shot placement and caliber. If it's rated to stop a particular caliber/muzzle velocity, it's not going to fail until multiple shots land in the exact same spot, and that's why it's a huge problem that every hit in game removes health regardless of shot placement. You shouldn't be low health from shots that wouldn't penetrate, as another shot that hits the armor will probably land in a different spot. Again, this is why a single health bar cannot possibly represent such a complex system.
You might think I'm being unreasonable, but the thing is, it's 2021, and developers could surely develop a system to simulate body armor. Your defense of the current system is that it has to be this way to accommodate situations where the AI might hit a vulnerable area, but that's a false dilemma. As I said before, the devs could simply add multiple smaller hitboxes on the armor itself, with varying degrees of resistance, each with their own health values (based on real data), and then the outcome of getting shot would actually depend on realistic factors; if a shot goes around the armor, you're likely to be incapacitated or killed, if it hits a part of the armor rated to stop that caliber, you're protected until that part of the armor fails from repeated hits, with various stun mechanics (or even debuffs for the rest of the mission) to simulate the potential trauma.
For the PvP part of the game, adjustments could be made for the sake of balance, like giving the defenders better armor as well, or increasing their squad size, etc. But that potential issue is no reason for such an unrealistic representation of armor in the co-op portion of the game.
No offense, but I think you've been watching too many action movies. Yes, some of these rounds hit hard, but not hard enough to shatter your ribcage. As I said, there could be stun mechanics or permanent debuffs to simulate the blunt force trauma of repeated hits from rifle rounds that were stopped by the plate, but there's simply no denying that armor doesn't function adequately in this game, especially when it can't even stop the pistol calibers.
- Armor being defined by multiple hitboxes (helmet, Torso front, back)
- Unarmored part having separate hitboxes (limbs, neck/throat, pelvis)
- each hitbox having various Health points and various resistances to shots (depends on caliber and distance)
- When "armored" hitboxes are damaged enough, shots are now penetrating on the "unarmored" ones, potentialy being fatal.
It essentially comes to get differentiated health pools, but with some kind of simple colored-coded paperdoll you could tell where you have been hit, and can avoid exposing too much vulnerable spots (lean left to protect your right side, crouch to protect your legs, and so on).
But assurely, even if the game should remain brutal, I could trade more sustainable damage (thus being a bit more durable as an armored swat operator) with a more granular hit system, in exchange for more or less severe trauma effects over the body (unusable arm or leg impairing movement speed, blurred vision, impareid hearing, etc), reflecting the injuries.
Instead of the oversimplified HP bar we currently got (wich is by no mean an improvement over all previous shooters around here).
I think you've misunderstood what I'm suggesting. Trust me, nobody hates unrealistically bullet spongy enemies more than I do. I've stopped playing countless games because of it. However, "simple" armor mechanics are the problem, not the solution. In most games, the armor hitboxes cover too large of an area, so players can't reliably hit the spots that should be exposed. It also has an overall health value, which means it offers too much protection, and then suddenly it "breaks" and protects too little. With this kind of simple model, there's no way to achieve anything resembling realism no matter how much you tweak the numbers. In the case of ZH, they've essentially reduced the armor values to a point where it's nonexistent, and while I understand what they were trying to avoid, it just doesn't work in a game where you're playing a heavily armored SWAT officer. As I said, your armor doesn't even stop pistol calibers, which is crazy.
In order to function realistically, the armor hitboxes need to match up precisely with the visual model. with separate hitboxes for the different materials, as well as different levels of resistance. Just as importantly, the materials need to take damage in the specific places they're hit, until they fail. That way, you'd be able to reliably aim at exposed areas, and the armor itself could be penetrated with repeated hits in the same place, but it also wouldn't stop offering protection in one spot just because it had been hit in another spot. In other words, what I'm proposing is true realism.
Yes, something like that would certainly be an improvement. I think one of the most important factors though is that the hitboxes line up with exactly where you see the armor, as a lot of games with armor extend it even over areas that are clearly exposed on the player model, making it too hard to kill heavily armored people. The armor itself should be durable, but if you hit a visual gap, it should always get through.
It's also important that the hitboxes on the armor itself not be too big, or else you could have a situation where a few hits in entirely different places on a ballistic plate caused the whole thing to "break." If it's a level III steel plate for example, multiple rifle rounds would have to land very close together before the armor failed, so ideally each part of the armor would be divided up into a grid like pattern so that there were multiple destructible zones within it.