Hey! That was my ambush, right there!

[BionicDance]

Okay...what's going on? GalCiv4 never used to teleport all of my ships out of an empire's territory just because I declared war!

I was trying to be treacherous, hover fleets near all of the enemy's worlds, and then just conquer them all at once, but nooooo...

Now, what I don't understand is why this happened. It's never happened before.
But I definitely don't like it. It makes no sense, it's immersion-breaking, but above all, it's no fun.

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

It's a strategy when every opponent can use it. It's an exploit when you're the only one that can use it. Therefore I agree to disagree.

It's a strategy if you can think it up and implement it...even if the other side doesn't or can't.

But deciding to teleport my ships instead of programming the AI for treachery is, in my not-even-slightly-humble-opinion, 100% the wrong direction. NPCs in 4X games are usually soulless avatars; giving them some actual strategy to with from...that'd be interesting.

[Airmaster]

Opprinnelig skrevet av BionicDance:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

It's a strategy when every opponent can use it. It's an exploit when you're the only one that can use it. Therefore I agree to disagree.

It's a strategy if you can think it up and implement it...even if the other side doesn't or can't.

But deciding to teleport my ships instead of programming the AI for treachery is, in my not-even-slightly-humble-opinion, 100% the wrong direction. NPCs in 4X games are usually soulless avatars; giving them some actual strategy to with from...that'd be interesting.

Difference of opinions, neither one is right or wrong, just different. I don't believe in playing as an evil ruthless villain who needs to ambush and sneak attack his enemies to win.

Lets leave it there.

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

Opprinnelig skrevet av BionicDance:

It's a strategy if you can think it up and implement it...even if the other side doesn't or can't.

But deciding to teleport my ships instead of programming the AI for treachery is, in my not-even-slightly-humble-opinion, 100% the wrong direction. NPCs in 4X games are usually soulless avatars; giving them some actual strategy to with from...that'd be interesting.

Difference of opinions, neither one is right or wrong, just different.

And the option to play my way has been removed.
Clearly, I'm unhappy about it.

I don't believe in playing as an evil ruthless villain who needs to ambush and sneak attack his enemies to win.

And I don't believe in the game finger-wagging at me about the moral path I've chosen.

Lets leave it there.

Resistance is useless!

[Airmaster]

Your strategy as you state is simply galactic genocide in a game. That's not finger wagging, that is just pointing out a fact and unethical flaw in your strategy not a moral one.

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

Your strategy as you state is simply galactic genocide in a game. That's not finger wagging, that is just pointing out a fact and unethical flaw in your strategy not a moral one.

I thought I was clear: if the game doesn't let me be evil, it's a horrible oversight.

[Airmaster]

Nah, I wouldn't say it was an oversight because there has to be a balance and teleporting your fleets there by thwarted your plans for total Galactic domination in one fell swoop balanced it out.

The AI learns from the way you play and takes the appropriate action and that from my perspective is basically what you encountered is the AI throwing a monkey wrench in your strategy to balance it.

I would say the AI is getting smarter.

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

Nah, I wouldn't say it was an oversight because there has to be a balance

No, actually...there doesn't have to be balance.
In fact, many times, the game is wildly unbalanced...and that's the way it should be. with less developed empires having to struggle. Or perhaps fall.

I don't know why you're so focused on making it even what it's not supposed to be.

[Airmaster]

Opprinnelig skrevet av BionicDance:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

Nah, I wouldn't say it was an oversight because there has to be a balance

No, actually...there doesn't have to be balance.
In fact, many times, the game is wildly unbalanced...and that's the way it should be. with less developed empires having to struggle. Or perhaps fall.

I don't know why you're so focused on making it even what it's not supposed to be. :negative1:

But yet it happened. The way I see it is your opponents wised up to your strategy, came up with a plan, executed plan and sent you back to square one. Time to come up with a new strategy.

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

Opprinnelig skrevet av BionicDance:

No, actually...there doesn't have to be balance.
In fact, many times, the game is wildly unbalanced...and that's the way it should be. with less developed empires having to struggle. Or perhaps fall.

I don't know why you're so focused on making it even what it's not supposed to be.

But yet it happened. The way I see it is your opponents wised up to your strategy, came up with a plan, executed plan and sent you back to square one. Time to come up with a new strategy.

Except that's not what happened; the game just cheated.

The empire I was about to attack was on the very bottom of the tech rankings while I was second; I could squash them like bugs and they absolutely didn't have the technology to make my ships leave if they didn't want to.

Besides, have you never seen "Babylon 5"...? The fall of the Narn Regime against the Centauri? Being this kind of evil is a staple of science fiction.

[Illauna]

So think there is a middle ground.

First towards the pearl harbor attack example. Yes this happened but Japan wasn't able to surround Washington DC, Los Angelas, San Diego and Norfolk with their troops before declaring war.

The moment it looked like there is a lot of troops approaching strategic targets even staunch allies would pause a little bit.

I dont think you should be able to position all your units and win the war in 1 turn. That said I think you absolutely should be able to launch a sneak attack. This should incur a diplo penalty. But the sneak attack would allow you to perform 1 attack before everyone would be kicked out of the their space.

But def do not agree with the idea that you shouldn't be kicked out at all. It's a cheese trick and if the player is allowed to do it the AI should be able to do as well. But, allowing to do so would then have players coming to this discussion board upset that the AI was able to attack without a chance to create a defense or they were not able to attack the AI in their territory.

[Airmaster]

Opprinnelig skrevet av BionicDance:

Besides, have you never seen "Babylon 5"...? The fall of the Narn Regime against the Centauri? Being this kind of evil is a staple of science fiction.

And yet the Narn race was not annihilated because G'kar reluctantly agreed to set aside his pride and ego and allow himself to become a slave. Meanwhile Londo is working behind the scenes to free G'kar in spite of his hate for him that he plans and orchestrates the assassination of the Centauri Emporer to which eventually secured G'kar's freedom and helps G'kar save the lives of the all the rest of the Narn in captivity.

The Centauri Republic was isolated with an embargo and severe diplomatic sanctions for their aggression which prevented them from carrying out total genocide against the Narn, bacause if they had all the other other allied races including Sheridan and the Mabari would have declared war on the Centauri Republic.

I know my Babylon 5 very well.

[besban]

"teleport all of my ships out of an empire's territory just because I declared war"

That is a well known simple solution, which is good enough for the right purpose, although not the best. It gives you free passing at peace time.

Ideally you should not have ship range that extends to the power's territory. If you forcefully enter their territory, it is considered a declaration of war.

The mechanism is just to catch up what was supposed to happen.
How to avoid being be kicked out? Simply declare war before entering their territory.

[Black_Hole]

Opprinnelig skrevet av besban:

The mechanism is just to catch up what was supposed to happen.
How to avoid being be kicked out? Simply declare war before entering their territory.

That´s a perfect point! And it is just that what I am doing frequently before making a DOW. I bring my whole attack force right to the border of the race I intent to attack. After the DOW my ships can immediately cross the borders and usually arrives the first worlds to attack within 1 to 2 turns. That is good enough for me.

To sum things up:
Even committing "galactic genocide" by playing GalCiv 4 is completely legitimate. Otherwise the Korath Clan should not be a selectable race. Some might dislike this kind of playstyle yet still it is an eligible way of play provided by the Devs.

I still have the oppinion that surprise/sneak attacks should be allowed for those players who want to play that way. But I recognize that if allowing such tactics to players it also must be allowed for the AI. And in this case many players would become upset being ambushed by the AI again and again. So for the greater good of the game and the majority of the player base I am fine with the rules of engagement as they are!

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Illauna:

So think there is a middle ground.

The middle ground is making this nonsense an option.
Something you can turn off. Or on, if you choose.

But if it's forced on me, I'm finding a new game, because I really, really, deeply, intensely, with the fury of a thousand suns hate this.

First towards the pearl harbor attack example. Yes this happened but Japan wasn't able to surround Washington DC, Los Angelas, San Diego and Norfolk with their troops before declaring war.

Then I'll learn from history and use better tactics than the Japanese in WWII and succeed that much harder.

I dont think you should be able to position all your units and win the war in 1 turn.

It's never just one turn.
It's a crippling strike at the heart of their empire, but it doesn't win you the war immediately.

That said I think you absolutely should be able to launch a sneak attack. This should incur a diplo penalty. But the sneak attack would allow you to perform 1 attack before everyone would be kicked out of the their space.

You don't "kick out" an invader...you have to repel them. You have to fight them to get them off of your home turf.

But def do not agree with the idea that you shouldn't be kicked out at all.

And I don't agree with the idea that you should be kicked out.

1 - It makes zero sense...how does it happen? Magic?
My ships are there. Someone comes to try to kick them out, there'll be a fight over it...that's what war is. That fight should be played out rather than the game just going, "NO!" and hand-waving your fleets a flobbety-jillion lightyears away. To make it "fair".

2 - It turns Galactic Civilizations from a 4X game to a mere boardgame. It unrecoverably breaks immersion hard.
And, frankly, that seems to be the source of the disagreement: I want an immersive sci-fi experience that mimics my favorite franchises; I don't want "Risk in Space".

It's a cheese trick and if the player is allowed to do it the AI should be able to do as well. But, allowing to do so would then have players coming to this discussion board upset that the AI was able to attack without a chance to create a defense or they were not able to attack the AI in their territory.

To which I say. "Then empire better. Or drop the difficulty down a bit."
But the very fact that there is disagreement at all is a good argument for making this optional. Just stick an "Allow Sneak Attacks" checkbox in the Options menu, and badabing.

But what I know is that this wasn't a thing when I bought the game, this didn't happen. I have 160 hours. I was enjoying myself.
Then this happened...and I was pissed. It's not the game I bought anymore.

[BionicDance]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Airmaster:

I know my Babylon 5 very well.

Maybe. But you missed the point of the example.