Game Story and Plot

[Witcher]

How many players follow the story in game? I had difficulty following story in Nioh 2. At least I followed William's story in Nioh.

[Fraktal]

Publicado originalmente por DarylSurat:

I enjoyed the story of Nioh 2. It is basically a story about the founding of Japan as a country made by Japanese developers, so they basically assumed players would know who these characters are. Imagine if George Washington or Abraham Lincoln showed up in an American videogame. That game would probably not see the need to explain a lot about who they are other than "greetings, player; I am Abraham Lincoln" since most people in America know who these important historical figures are.

Aside from the fact that Nioh 2 has all the mythical creatures and magic/Amrita stones etc (the enemies in the game are all interpretations of actual Japanese folklore monsters), there are two big changes from history. The first is the main conceit of the game being that Hideyoshi was actually two completely different people. The second (and ultimately the reason for doing the first) is the depiction of the death of Oda Nobunaga, who is basically their most famous/infamous historical figure from this time.

For hundreds of years (as in, like almost 450 years), the history teaches that Oda Nobunaga was betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide. For over four centuries, the Akechi name has been considered synonymous with treason, like how Benedict Arnold is for American history. But nobody has ever known the reason for the overnight betrayal. The story of Nioh 2 suggests that Mitsuhide did NOT betray Nobunaga at all, and that he did NOT get randomly killed by bandits after a battle with Hideyoshi's forces. Nioh 2's story says that he faked his death and that it was in fact Hideyoshi who was actually behind it all, but since Hideyoshi ended up in charge his people ended up rewriting the historical records to hide the truth.

This idea has only started being discussed within the last 5 or 6 years or so, since a Japanese historian discovered he was a descendant of Mitsuhide's and was trying to uncover more details. It's still not accepted by most institutions as being true, but that's why Hideyoshi is the villain of the story of Nioh 2, yet also the hero of the story of Nioh 2. It's a fantasy way of reconciling a disputed historical record.

It’s interesting learning about history from another, less known angle. Especially if it disproves what was regarded as fact.

[SkacikPL]

Story telling is kinda half-assed being relegated mostly to text before/after missions and during loading screens.

If you don't read those, you'll easily skip bulk of what's supposed to happen "in between" the supposed "main" events but even what they consider as a "main" event worthy of a cutscene is not always reliable.

There's a lot of stuff like that, like why Mumyo sticks around and keeps acting like tsundere or why Tokichiro suddenly goes sour.

Not to mention whole core cause of the game with Otakemaru, where functionally you do exact same thing as in base game but suddenly he goes "Oh ♥♥♥♥ maybe you're right, well whatever then".

Overall the lore and whatnot are interesting but the way it's all executed and tied together is kinda lacking if you want to consider it of how much of a coherent and well explained story it is.
I assume a lot of it was stemming from budget reasons to not delve into Metal Gear'esque 15+ minute cutscenes but even then i think they could've thought of better way of exposing secondary stuff without relying on walls upon walls of text.

Other than that it seems to rely on player being at least somewhat acquainted with Japanese history and geography or at least tries to excuse not reintroducing that knowledge by hoping that player has probably played Nioh 1 before where bulk of that stuff was better explained to William/Player as a foreigner.

[⭕TheSodaman]

Publicado originalmente por DarylSurat:

I enjoyed the story of Nioh 2. It is basically a story about the founding of Japan as a country made by Japanese developers, so they basically assumed players would know who these characters are. Imagine if George Washington or Abraham Lincoln showed up in an American videogame. That game would probably not see the need to explain a lot about who they are other than "greetings, player; I am Abraham Lincoln" since most people in America know who these important historical figures are.

Aside from the fact that Nioh 2 has all the mythical creatures and magic/Amrita stones etc (the enemies in the game are all interpretations of actual Japanese folklore monsters), there are two big changes from history. The first is the main conceit of the game being that Hideyoshi was actually two completely different people. The second (and ultimately the reason for doing the first) is the depiction of the death of Oda Nobunaga, who is basically their most famous/infamous historical figure from this time.

For hundreds of years (as in, like almost 450 years), the history teaches that Oda Nobunaga was betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide. For over four centuries, the Akechi name has been considered synonymous with treason, like how Benedict Arnold is for American history. But nobody has ever known the reason for the overnight betrayal. The story of Nioh 2 suggests that Mitsuhide did NOT betray Nobunaga at all, and that he did NOT get randomly killed by bandits after a battle with Hideyoshi's forces. Nioh 2's story says that he faked his death and that it was in fact Hideyoshi who was actually behind it all, but since Hideyoshi ended up in charge his people ended up rewriting the historical records to hide the truth.

This idea has only started being discussed within the last 5 or 6 years or so, since a Japanese historian discovered he was a descendant of Mitsuhide's and was trying to uncover more details. It's still not accepted by most institutions as being true, but that's why Hideyoshi is the villain of the story of Nioh 2, yet also the hero of the story of Nioh 2. It's a fantasy way of reconciling a disputed historical record.

I've had a running baseless theory that Hideyoshi, Akechi, and the Honnoji incident, but as you say, the victors write history and the less popular opinions may not surface until much later, but the hatred is passed forward.

[⭕TheSodaman]

Publicado originalmente por Alicia du Lys:

Publicado originalmente por The Orange and Blue Ninja:

I said this game specifically.

I loved the Witcher series, and Pillars of Eternity. And many more I cannot name right now.

And this entire game is grinding for mindless killings to better our gear or level up.....

I find the plot better here than in The Witcher 3. And yes, as a japanese translator, I know japanese history and mythology.

Also came in from the Japanese historical side and military tactics side of things, but virtually no Japanese mythology beyond a few folktales and early deities.

I think for me, Hide's motivation for assisting Tokichiro is pretty lacking and becomes even more questionable after the third story mission. Then there are some gaps in character logic or pacing that just made it harder for me to care for Nioh 2's plot. Whereas (I'm using Witcher 2) had a pretty clear motivation early on and multiple motivations introduced throughout that while I did feel like I missed the story or people of who they were before, was able to catch up, and pacing wise, continue to get into the flow of the characters and

Such things as, have Dōsan or Kichō ever seen Yoshitatsu's face before? Spoilers up through the second region below.

In the hut when Tokichiro introduces Hide to Dōsan.
Dōsan "Yoshitatsu? What are you doing out here?"

Or...

Hide defeats the third boss and Dōsan opens the sealed path, "Whoa! You said this place was filled with poisons and that Yatsu-no-kami turned evil? Wait, that dagger?! You're my son/daughter! The fact that you look like your identical twin means nothing, because I've never seen them without the armor. Nope. No one has. So, here's how you were born. Now go protect your sister. She's married to Oda Nobunaga.

Now Instead of closing the door with both of us inside, I'm going to try this new Last Gambit critical build on these yokai who were patient enough not to gang up on you during the boss fight. Go on, head down that yokai infested path behind me. I mean the only reason I was running this way was cause I was getting chased in there."

And then end of main campaign spoilers for Nioh 1 and Nioh 2.

William to Maria "Spanish ninja! How have you been two steps ahead all this time? But you or Kelley spent all this time to resurrect Nobunaga and Hideyoshi? Both a waste of resources for you."

Maria "But... Francis said.... and uh, when I was working with Yodogimi, she said her husband was an absolute monster! And their son was literally made out of amrita! How was I supposed to know he was just this useless old ecchi man?"

William "Wait, you're right. His son WAS made out of amrita. What the F was that about?!"

Kashin Doji "Fools! For my first act, I'm going to teleport to the dragon statue pearl, remove it - maybe even shatter it, flooding all of you in here. I know none of you can swim, including that English pirate who swims during cutscenes. That way, the only sword that can defeat me will be sealed here with you. I also know you used the kodama shrine here, so when you respawn, you're going to drown again. Or something. And then I'm going to find the current leader of this land and possess them and do something nefarious..."

Team Ninja "No."

Kashin Doji "Okay!"

Kashin Doji flies toward Tokichiro and Hide jumps in the way, final battle ensues with epic music. A monkey guardian spirit helps.

[DarylSurat]

Publicado originalmente por TheSodaman:

Also came in from the Japanese historical side and military tactics side of things, but virtually no Japanese mythology beyond a few folktales and early deities.
...
Spoilers up through the second region below.

In the hut when Tokichiro introduces Hide to Dōsan.
Dōsan "Yoshitatsu? What are you doing out here?"

Or...

Hide defeats the third boss and Dōsan opens the sealed path, "Whoa! You said this place was filled with poisons and that Yatsu-no-kami turned evil? Wait, that dagger?! You're my son/daughter! The fact that you look like your identical twin means nothing, because I've never seen them without the armor. Nope. No one has. So, here's how you were born. Now go protect your sister. She's married to Oda Nobunaga.

Now Instead of closing the door with both of us inside, I'm going to try this new Last Gambit critical build on these yokai who were patient enough not to gang up on you during the boss fight. Go on, head down that yokai infested path behind me. I mean the only reason I was running this way was cause I was getting chased in there."

Well, if you came in from the historical and military tactics side of things, then you know full well that Saito Dōsan was a real person, and he really did (I'll tag this even though it's all actual stuff that happened) have two successors (which may have been twins, or one of them may have assumed his name following his death), and he really did arrange for his daughter to marry Oda Nobunaga, and he really did die in the year and place that the stage in question is set in, etc. Probably not from fighting literal demons, though. I would hope that he has in fact seen Yoshitatsu's face before on account that Yoshitatsu was his adopted son; he's surprised to see him THERE.

All they're doing is taking these real people and events and using it as a tie-in for a videogame story about fighting monsters alongside famous people from history. Like Assassin's Creed without the stupid modern day memory machine parts.

[Witcher]

Is the Mother in the Interim Otakemaru's sister and why did he choose to remain in yokai form?

Another thing, what's Kashin Koji motive in the game - possess human bodies?

[SubTonic]

Like half of the story assumes the player is familiar with events during that period, like Nobunaga's death and Hideyoshi's rise to power. If you read ALL of the flavor text in the hut between every mission, you get a decent idea what's up, but the story really just doesn't care about people who don't know all that stuff already. IMO it's pretty lazy and I don't know why Team Ninja bothered with a lot of it. Either make the story cohesive and digestible by history nuts and casual players alike, or just....don't bother with a story. Should have made Nioh a more open-ended adventure game with lore you can collect, but nah...instead we get this game trying to do both the Dark Souls minimalist approach and the up front approach at the same time, and it's just a giant mess.

[⭕TheSodaman]

Publicado originalmente por DarylSurat:

Publicado originalmente por TheSodaman:

Also came in from the Japanese historical side and military tactics side of things, but virtually no Japanese mythology beyond a few folktales and early deities.
...
Spoilers up through the second region below.

In the hut when Tokichiro introduces Hide to Dōsan.
Dōsan "Yoshitatsu? What are you doing out here?"

Or...

Hide defeats the third boss and Dōsan opens the sealed path, "Whoa! You said this place was filled with poisons and that Yatsu-no-kami turned evil? Wait, that dagger?! You're my son/daughter! The fact that you look like your identical twin means nothing, because I've never seen them without the armor. Nope. No one has. So, here's how you were born. Now go protect your sister. She's married to Oda Nobunaga.

Now Instead of closing the door with both of us inside, I'm going to try this new Last Gambit critical build on these yokai who were patient enough not to gang up on you during the boss fight. Go on, head down that yokai infested path behind me. I mean the only reason I was running this way was cause I was getting chased in there."

Well, if you came in from the historical and military tactics side of things, then you know full well that Saito Dōsan was a real person, and he really did (I'll tag this even though it's all actual stuff that happened) have two successors (which may have been twins, or one of them may have assumed his name following his death), and he really did arrange for his daughter to marry Oda Nobunaga, and he really did die in the year and place that the stage in question is set in, etc. Probably not from fighting literal demons, though. I would hope that he has in fact seen Yoshitatsu's face before on account that Yoshitatsu was his adopted son; he's surprised to see him THERE.

All they're doing is taking these real people and events and using it as a tie-in for a videogame story about fighting monsters alongside famous people from history. Like Assassin's Creed without the stupid modern day memory machine parts.

Oh, I'm aware of the historical aspects of it. Looking at this from the scope of Nioh 2 was a tough pill to swallow in a few areas.

[shwarmizzle]

btw one thing that's been bothering me lately. When you beat the final mission, there's a quick DLC preview where they show you Minamoto no Yoshitsune, Minamoto no Yorimitsu and someone else. Did the third person get cut from the game or something?
Screens:
https://imgur.com/a/UWdMPz2

[Asedora]

Publicado originalmente por cardinal S> 3 LDLC 1 Dig AK-47:

btw one thing that's been bothering me lately. When you beat the final mission, there's a quick DLC preview where they show you Minamoto no Yoshitsune, Minamoto no Yorimitsu and someone else. Did the third person get cut from the game or something?
Screens:
https://imgur.com/a/UWdMPz2

It's your character,I only managed to recognize it since my character had an eyepatch

[Sir_Knight_Arthorias]

Publicado originalmente por cardinal S> 3 LDLC 1 Dig AK-47:

btw one thing that's been bothering me lately. When you beat the final mission, there's a quick DLC preview where they show you Minamoto no Yoshitsune, Minamoto no Yorimitsu and someone else. Did the third person get cut from the game or something?
Screens:
https://imgur.com/a/UWdMPz2

That's Hide

[Simbolic]

Yeah i understand whats going on but not in alot of detail. I haven't finish game yet but s far seems like you trying to help some dude found spirit stones. Which seems fine but still never explains what he wants to use them for exactly. Then your also part Yokai pretty much forced to disrupt some kind of war between the Yokia and the humans. Though apparently not all Yokai are evil. Since some can help you. So that's a thing, but seems like you need to destroy powerful Yokai to advance there war. Yet i have no idea why my character is involved in it all. With little to none back story, a human and a Yokia had sex made the protagonist. Who first dies and wakes up in a hut. I assume the guy who kills you is the final boss. Maybe he explains more before the battle.

[The High Seraph]

Publicado originalmente por Derekmacen22:

Yeah i understand whats going on but not in alot of detail. I haven't finish game yet but s far seems like you trying to help some dude found spirit stones. Which seems fine but still never explains what he wants to use them for exactly. Then your also part Yokai pretty much forced to disrupt some kind of war between the Yokia and the humans. Though apparently not all Yokai are evil. Since some can help you. So that's a thing, but seems like you need to destroy powerful Yokai to advance there war. Yet i have no idea why my character is involved in it all. With little to none back story, a human and a Yokia had sex made the protagonist. Who first dies and wakes up in a hut. I assume the guy who kills you is the final boss. Maybe he explains more before the battle.

He told you when you first met with him . He wanna be the greatest and these stones will help him reaching this position . He will become the Second Great Unifier of Japan and the one who invaded Korea ( failed hard ) in real history . Your character is involved because you shared name with "some dude found spirit stones" and some family matters . Thing is .. Developers told story like
"Hay we assumed that you already know our History , so here is our version of this story with some stones and Yokais"
This is only work if you've already learned about Sengoku era of japanese history and possibly even Edo because final region "Afterglow" is at 1616 which is basically very early part of Edo period . If you are not familiar with their History and only watched cutscenes , story is like reading a book that missed so many pages . This is bad style of storytelling in my book . Not even mentioned some plot holes and lack of motivations of characters . Too glad it's combat focus grinding game so I can just neglect the entire story .

[cybercybercybercyber4]

my brother once asked me about the story of bloodborne.
i couldnt come up with anything better than:
"you wake up in a hospital and then kill a lot of monsters. oh, and there is also something with ancient blood that apparently should be feared. then you kill some more monsters, and for some reason you then need to kill another hunter in the end."

atmosphere is imo more important than story, unfortunately nioh 2 majorly lacks both.
In that regard its heavily inferior to nioh 1.

[Fraktal]

Publicado originalmente por The High Seraph:

Publicado originalmente por Derekmacen22:

Yeah i understand whats going on but not in alot of detail. I haven't finish game yet but s far seems like you trying to help some dude found spirit stones. Which seems fine but still never explains what he wants to use them for exactly. Then your also part Yokai pretty much forced to disrupt some kind of war between the Yokia and the humans. Though apparently not all Yokai are evil. Since some can help you. So that's a thing, but seems like you need to destroy powerful Yokai to advance there war. Yet i have no idea why my character is involved in it all. With little to none back story, a human and a Yokia had sex made the protagonist. Who first dies and wakes up in a hut. I assume the guy who kills you is the final boss. Maybe he explains more before the battle.

He told you when you first met with him . He wanna be the greatest and these stones will help him reaching this position . He will become the Second Great Unifier of Japan and the one who invaded Korea ( failed hard ) in real history . Your character is involved because you shared name with "some dude found spirit stones" and some family matters . Thing is .. Developers told story like
"Hay we assumed that you already know our History , so here is our version of this story with some stones and Yokais"
This is only work if you've already learned about Sengoku era of japanese history and possibly even Edo because final region "Afterglow" is at 1616 which is basically very early part of Edo period . If you are not familiar with their History and only watched cutscenes , story is like reading a book that missed so many pages . This is bad style of storytelling in my book . Not even mentioned some plot holes and lack of motivations of characters . Too glad it's combat focus grinding game so I can just neglect the entire story .

Why did they fail at invading Korea?

Did they find the giant national park filled with huge penises and just retreat?

Yes thats a real thing, look it up.