Glaring design flaws

[oposdeo]

A lot of the things that bother people about the game can be seen as nitpicks or endearing in a way, and issues with the tutorial "hello abyss" mode aren't too important in the grand scheme of the game, but here are some substantial, glaring design problems that should have never passed playtesting:

1. Enemies out of thin air. It is immersion breaking, you cannot stealth around them, you do not get a break from them, they drain your weapon durability, health and food supplies, you don't get to enjoy the scenery or exploration of the abyss because it's constant uninteresting 1 HP enemies being spawned on you in some areas. You can't fish, eat or heal because they spawn next to you and hit you. This doesn't seem to affect the tutorial, but becomes glaring in the main game. Enemies should be placed on the map, where you can scout them with the monocular, stealth around them, prepare for them, and take the game at your own pace, they should not spawn constantly. Hell, enough enemies are already placed on the map, just remove the respawns and it's fun! Super easy! The butterflies spawning every time you try and climb is equally obnoxious, it makes me not want to climb. This is the worst thing about the game, it feels nothing like the abyss, it's just annoying and immersion breaking.

2. Cliff Softlocks. As you descend into the abyss, you need to eventually ascend back to bank your stuff. However there are many places in the game where you must go down a steep cliff, which you cannot climb back up due to stamina limitation. This traps you down below, and if you run out of food for stamina regen or can't find another way out, you are stuck. Ropes give you a no-stam way back up, but are expensive, heavy, limited, and not all cliffs even have rope spots. I appreciate that it makes you strategize with ropes and think twice before descending places, however when you actually do get stuck down there, it's not fun. Sometimes you can take an alternate route to get back, others, you are truly stuck.

3. Carry weight. The carry capacity forces you to think about what you are taking, and it's not inherently bad, but the problem is that the upgrades add too little to the total. As you progress and take deeper dives, the dives start to feel pointless as before you get that deep, your pockets are full and you just need to leave. The carry limitation also runs counter to spamming the player with quests to gather lots of supplies from areas. Your bag will fill up before you can get enough items, you will have to take many trips before you can complete these quests, or you just throw away what you gather. One problem is materials weigh way more than what they craft into. What if they were lowered to match the proportional weight of the items they craft into?

4. Weapons degrade too fast and ammo is too expensive compared to how often you need them to get food, more weapon parts, and just defend yourself, see point #1. The fact that you could pick a melee weapon with many hits or a couple arrows each with 1 hit also limits the desirability of ranged. Perhaps the arrows could be picked back up? Or craft 4 at a time?

Finally, this is more of a nitpick but why are there crafting quests that require you to buy a 3500 coin clothing item AND gather large quantities of valuable supplies, to craft an item that you have to GIVE to the quest giver, who pays you LESS than the cost of the item. And if you want that clothing item, you must buy it AGAIN and craft it AGAIN. These quests should only require you show the item, or should at least pay way more coins.

I am excited to go into the abyss, it's a game I've wanted since the show first aired. I'll suffer a lot of grind and design issues in the name of authenticity, I can appreciate that you need to act like a cave raider, it's immersive. But the enemy spam, OH the enemy spam, it ruins it all. Please fix that at least.

EDIT: Hey so it's been a while, I wrote this just after entering the 2nd layer and am now much further. The enemy spawning still blows, they could implement much better ways of introducing enemies into a map if needed. The other complaints are more minor, but the game does a terrible job communicating how it ought to be played and how the mechanics work, leading to confused players who may quit early. The game improves a lot at the Moon Whistle. I would have more fun if the weapons didn't break so fast and the bag had more space. The weight limit incentivizes bringing less weapons and the weapons break too fast compared to how many enemies are down there and how much health they have. I regularly find yourself unable to attack despite half my bag being weapons. Having to go back to Orth to repair the weapons is not ideal, but is necessary as later-game weapons are too hard to get materials for while raiding. I think this game could be improved a lot by adding craftable/buyable whetstones from hard rocks to repair the weapons. Especially with relic weapons, nobody is gonna be bringing more than 1 of each of those and breaking them. I am tolerating this all though, if I could have one thing, it would be to remove the rapidly spawning aggressive enemies.

[oposdeo]

Ah and one more thing would be that the curse isn't implemented properly. It accumulates whenever you move up at all, so if you just jump in place it will stack up. Then once you throw up or whatever the curse effect is, you're immune until the curse effect goes off screen. That's not how it works in the source. As you go up, if you want it to stop accumulating curse, you just have to sand around and do nothing. This just leads to moving up a little, standing around, moving up a little, standing around. You never actually have to face the strain of ascending this way, and it's a bit boring. It's a very strange choice and not faithful to the source. A faithful way would be to trigger the strain when you move a certain elevation higher than the lowest elevation you've been at within a certain time frame. Ultimately, moving up should have to be met with facing the curse. I suppose it would be hard to design the levels and gameplay around the source strain, where it's inevitable that raiders will have to face nausea and curse as they go up, but it would at least be nice if there was some threshold so that tiny little upwards movements or small changes in the terrain didn't accumulate curse. It should just be large increases in elevation.

[Тру-ля-ля]

I'll tell you this, for fans who lack manga and anime, this game is a very pleasant experience. If you do not take into account the worthless and crooked company for Rico and Reg, then the descent for your character looks very attractive. You have 5 layers and 8-10 locations on each layer. This is a lot of content for research. Maybe the mechanics are a bit crooked and the game itself has a bit of a Roguelike character. But personally, it almost doesn't bother me. Therefore, if you are a fan of this title, you can take it for the full price, personally I did not regret it. If in doubt, then wait for a discount.

[oposdeo]

I do enjoy it I'm just giving improvements. The enemy spawning makes it hard to enjoy the abyss, but It's manageable.

[OneJLimit]

Sounds like you're getting filtered. Maybe it's that you're: not paying attention to having a solid loadout every dive, throwing up too often, trying to pick fights you don't need to, don't see the point in quests giving you experience, don't look before you leap, and also want to just complain because you aren't playing as a main character who gets to have relatively effortless progress for the sake of the story.
If you're familiar with Monster Hunter or Etrian Odyssey, you should be familiar with the tempo of the game. If you aren't, then reasonably outfit yourself for each dive and be more careful. Carry multiple types of weapons so you use them until they're almost breaking, then swap out. Go back to the surface and they're all repaired. Suddenly you aren't losing everything, including that 400 damage pick.

[iceRenemi2.0]

Originally posted by OneJLimit:

Sounds like you're getting filtered. Maybe it's that you're: not paying attention to having a solid loadout every dive, throwing up too often, trying to pick fights you don't need to, don't see the point in quests giving you experience, don't look before you leap, and also want to just complain because you aren't playing as a main character who gets to have relatively effortless progress for the sake of the story.
If you're familiar with Monster Hunter or Etrian Odyssey, you should be familiar with the tempo of the game. If you aren't, then reasonably outfit yourself for each dive and be more careful. Carry multiple types of weapons so you use them until they're almost breaking, then swap out. Go back to the surface and they're all repaired. Suddenly you aren't losing everything, including that 400 damage pick.

You make a great point using Etrian Oddessey as an example. This game is very heavily aimed to have you push yourself each dive while keeping just enough to survive the trip back.

But the biggest issue with the game is how much more aggressively the game hurls resource drain at you than normal DIFFICULT games.

Took more than 2 mins in the area? Now you can't have a moments rest.

Fleeing over rocky terrain that should be considered flat? Better stop fleeing so you don't throw up.

Granted keeping durability and backups in mind would go a long way, the fact you can't climb a short cliff face without being harassed by at least 3 butterflies before you reach the top is needlessly taxing on resources.

This game is the equilivant of all the FOEs locking onto your position and beelining for you after 5 steps in the dungeon. And the exit is 300 steps away. You CAN get past them, but are you enjoying it?

[oposdeo]

I do like playing it, I'm still playing and enjoying, I just wish some of these kinks were ironed out. Honestly after playing more and understanding how it works later on, my two main complaints now are the enemy spawning, which is just irredeemable, and the inventory limit should be a bit higher. It would also be nice if the curse mechanic required less standing around and waiting while ascending, it could be more interesting.

[oposdeo]

Originally posted by OneJLimit:

Sounds like you're getting filtered. Maybe it's that you're: not paying attention to having a solid loadout every dive, throwing up too often, trying to pick fights you don't need to, don't see the point in quests giving you experience, don't look before you leap, and also want to just complain because you aren't playing as a main character who gets to have relatively effortless progress for the sake of the story.
If you're familiar with Monster Hunter or Etrian Odyssey, you should be familiar with the tempo of the game. If you aren't, then reasonably outfit yourself for each dive and be more careful. Carry multiple types of weapons so you use them until they're almost breaking, then swap out. Go back to the surface and they're all repaired. Suddenly you aren't losing everything, including that 400 damage pick.

You've missed the point entirely I have had no challenge with this game so far, in fact I think it's a bit too easy with regards to the enemies having bad AI. I am just stating things that lower the fun.

[Lapinoire]

Originally posted by OneJLimit:

Sounds like you're getting filtered. Maybe it's that you're: not paying attention to having a solid loadout every dive, throwing up too often, trying to pick fights you don't need to, don't see the point in quests giving you experience, don't look before you leap, and also want to just complain because you aren't playing as a main character who gets to have relatively effortless progress for the sake of the story.
If you're familiar with Monster Hunter or Etrian Odyssey, you should be familiar with the tempo of the game. If you aren't, then reasonably outfit yourself for each dive and be more careful. Carry multiple types of weapons so you use them until they're almost breaking, then swap out. Go back to the surface and they're all repaired. Suddenly you aren't losing everything, including that 400 damage pick.

I've played every single Etrian Odyssey since what, 2006? Every Etrian Odyssey excluding Heroes of Lagaard is less frustrating than having butterflies poking your butt constantly.

This isn't "getting filtered", it's just design made to annoy the player. It helps no one, it's not a fun mechanic, it's punishment for actually exploring. It's not a skillcheck, as the game is way too easy if you're properly geared and know how to minimize your load.

[AFRO THUNDER]

Whoever designed the third layer is a madman. Sheer verticality makes this stage torture. You can't look straight up for some godforsaken reason, and the map is almost completely useless because the areas in a zone are stacked right on top of each other. Just a simple "Above, Below" indicator would be a godsend. Trying to make my way back to the top I ran into 2 different dead ends, one of which cost me nearly half my health and stamina just to check whether I could proceed there.

I've noticed that combo attacks tend to do no damage on the 2nd or 3rd hits, though durability will still drop. If you swing at an enemy and he does a dodge roll, you will ALSO lose durability. I've lost whole pickaxes against a guy because he wouldn't stop rolling. The guns I tried on them also didn't do any damage for some reason.

I think the most critical items, bones and hard rocks, should be guaranteed drops. I don't like leaving it to RNGesus whether I can proceed or have to reload the stage. Speaking of items, it would be nice if gathering didn't insta-loot but instead let me know what I'm putting in my bag beforehand. The less I need to stop the whole game so I can look at a menu and drop some garbage I didn't want, the better.

[PerfectLife]

Originally posted by AFRO THUNDER:

Whoever designed the third layer is a madman. Sheer verticality makes this stage torture. You can't look straight up for some godforsaken reason, and the map is almost completely useless because the areas in a zone are stacked right on top of each other. Just a simple "Above, Below" indicator would be a godsend. Trying to make my way back to the top I ran into 2 different dead ends, one of which cost me nearly half my health and stamina just to check whether I could proceed there.

I've noticed that combo attacks tend to do no damage on the 2nd or 3rd hits, though durability will still drop. If you swing at an enemy and he does a dodge roll, you will ALSO lose durability. I've lost whole pickaxes against a guy because he wouldn't stop rolling. The guns I tried on them also didn't do any damage for some reason.

I think the most critical items, bones and hard rocks, should be guaranteed drops. I don't like leaving it to RNGesus whether I can proceed or have to reload the stage. Speaking of items, it would be nice if gathering didn't insta-loot but instead let me know what I'm putting in my bag beforehand. The less I need to stop the whole game so I can look at a menu and drop some garbage I didn't want, the better.

I've been seeing that more enemies get hit protection but it also drains durability...


Chime why so many bone-head decisions on game design. I feel like you need to hire me. Just run ideas by me and I will tell you if they are horrible or not. Deal?

[Hentaika]

1) They are there to help you not get stuck with no food. So all you need is to stock a solid amount of salt and you are good to go. Those can't touch you if you simply walk(doesn't even need to be dash) when they are trying to attack.. so they are mostly there to be your food with 0 danger. Removing them will make game MUCH more challenging if anything. Which is not a bad thing honestly as it's a bit too easy with infinite spawn.

2) Abyss is meant to be dangerous - bad decisions lead to death...
Nearly all big cliffs always have small nodes you can step on if you leave them there.. so usually not being able to go up is your fault. There are also multiple area entries, so even in such scenarios you can usually continue on and go out via other means.
You can 'give up' at any time for a reason.
If anything - game is a bit too forgiving IMO.
My main gripe if anything would be forced rope places with no alternative path... but once you get used to always carrying some rope - those troubles kinda go away.

3) Weight limit is done perfectly IMO - you can't just grab everything you see. That's the reason why gear is balanced as is too. Expect a full preparation(armor, 2-3 DIFFERENT weapons if you don't want them to break.. maybe a few extra of ones you are fine breaking if your goal is to fight hard opponents, ~3-5 ropes depending on layers you are going to visit, a fishing rod, ~15 salt) is going to take ~half of your weight early on... ~1/3rd by the end. The remaining weight is A LOT. You can certainly loot a zone or two easily.. and if you are simply going for 50 gather then you can just throw away less valuable stuff you don't need after gathering it. Heck, you can probably do a whole layer in one go this way with ~30 salt.
50% of the weight out of which ~20-30% will be filled mostly by relics is more than covering any kind of reasonable preparation for your runs and giving you a solid chunk on top.

4) You have many slots for a reason. Bring 3 weapons - 2 top tier lightweight ones and one cheapest one, don't kill stuff unless you need to - usually nothing can actually hurt you unless you start fighting it actively. Use cheapest one to get rid of one hit trash. Use top tier ones for harder stuff but leave em at 1 durability so you don't need to recraft/repurchase them. Plan your runs around the durability of weapons you have.

[Heatnixx]

Originally posted by Hentaika:

1) They are there to help you not get stuck with no food..

Nobody likes the infinite spawning, please stop trying to defend it. People actually wanna stop and immerse themselves, not being forced to run around on a 7 minute timer so broken it makes fishing in certain locations impossible.

[MartinX]

Originally posted by Hentaika:

1) They are there to help you not get stuck with no food. So all you need is to stock a solid amount of salt and you are good to go. Those can't touch you if you simply walk(doesn't even need to be dash) when they are trying to attack.. so they are mostly there to be your food with 0 danger. Removing them will make game MUCH more challenging if anything. Which is not a bad thing honestly as it's a bit too easy with infinite spawn.

2) Abyss is meant to be dangerous - bad decisions lead to death...
Nearly all big cliffs always have small nodes you can step on if you leave them there.. so usually not being able to go up is your fault. There are also multiple area entries, so even in such scenarios you can usually continue on and go out via other means.
You can 'give up' at any time for a reason.
If anything - game is a bit too forgiving IMO.
My main gripe if anything would be forced rope places with no alternative path... but once you get used to always carrying some rope - those troubles kinda go away.

3) Weight limit is done perfectly IMO - you can't just grab everything you see. That's the reason why gear is balanced as is too. Expect a full preparation(armor, 2-3 DIFFERENT weapons if you don't want them to break.. maybe a few extra of ones you are fine breaking if your goal is to fight hard opponents, ~3-5 ropes depending on layers you are going to visit, a fishing rod, ~15 salt) is going to take ~half of your weight early on... ~1/3rd by the end. The remaining weight is A LOT. You can certainly loot a zone or two easily.. and if you are simply going for 50 gather then you can just throw away less valuable stuff you don't need after gathering it. Heck, you can probably do a whole layer in one go this way with ~30 salt.
50% of the weight out of which ~20-30% will be filled mostly by relics is more than covering any kind of reasonable preparation for your runs and giving you a solid chunk on top.

4) You have many slots for a reason. Bring 3 weapons - 2 top tier lightweight ones and one cheapest one, don't kill stuff unless you need to - usually nothing can actually hurt you unless you start fighting it actively. Use cheapest one to get rid of one hit trash. Use top tier ones for harder stuff but leave em at 1 durability so you don't need to recraft/repurchase them. Plan your runs around the durability of weapons you have.

Sorry, just can't agree with 1), which is actually heavily related to 4). I got lunged on by Mantoyers the moment I tried to use a healing item in an area that was completely clear of enemies just a second before. Same with those bloody butterflies - the moment you start climbing a wall, they spawn behind you.

All those respawning mobs will also eat through your weapon's durability and if you don't have enough hard rocks in your inventory you're basically screwed.

As OP mentioned, this is not only mechanically stupid, but completely immersion-breaking as well. You can have all the enemies in an area respawn after you leave it and then re-enter after a few minutes, but seeing mobs materialise from thin air right next to you the moment you look behind your back is just bonkers.

[Hentaika]

Not sure what you are doing to lose weapon durability.
It's literally:
Do you need meat? Kill freebie spawns.
You don't need meat? Ignore the freebie enemies, they at most will hit you once across the map if you don't pay attention. Kinda keeps you on your toes as well.

Mantoyers means you are in layer 1.. layer 1 has 0 chance to touch you at all. Layer 2 is where the spawns have chance to touch you since they are flying and just like all flying units - their movement can be a bit glitchy.

Same for weapon durability - not sure how you can have trouble with it in layer 1 since you can literally craft it with resources on the stage. It's layer 2+ where you need to be careful with your weapon usage since you are mostly limited to what you take with you.

That being said if you rush first 2 layers - moon whistle gives a huge boost to a lot of stuff. You get loads of extra inventory space, You can easily climb anything, dashing for quite a long time and more.

2nd layer is actually pretty short in terms of questline and mostly involves combat only, hence just stacking weapons/ropes and you are good for the most part.
Since at this point you can't really craft your weapons anymore(requires a fish scale that's veeeery annoying to farm and is required for armor upgrades as well) - you have to purchase them.. meaning you certainly don't want to break them or all your cash income will be repurchasing them.
I usually used top tier pickaxe + lightweight one + lightweight hatchet and always stopped using those when they have 1 hit worth of durability left...
And 1-2 lowest tier weapons for respawnable farm depending on how long I plan my run... if required it's okay to break those since they are pretty easy to remake.

[legomike666]

That being said if you rush first 2 layers

rushing isnt fun