Soil healing mechanics??

[Daynen Drakeson]

from what I hear, mulchtube is supposed to be the more "reliable" soil healer as opposed to giant's grass. So far, my experience has been the opposite. So I'm testing.

I've got a patch of tubes and a patch of grass growing adjacent to each other for about three game years now and while I can visibly see the soil under the grass improving and track the ratio of sand/clay/silt/loam, the mulchtube has just kind of sat there. Is there some hidden mechanic? does mulchtube need fertilizer to work? Does it not work outside the desert? I'm on the trading post scenario on concordia and I bought the mulchtube recipe to plant it but so far it's been a waste.

I also planted two isolated 3x3 patches of tubes and set one to not harvest to see if that made a difference. So far: nothing from either one. both started on 9 tiles of 70%(sand.) No change in three years. Still 70% soil quality.

Anyone have any comparative testing?

[Jaggid Edje]

I'd assume you need to harvest it for the effect, because that's how mulch works. First you let it grow, then you work it back into the soil.

I'm totally basing that on assumption though, I have yet to find or see mulchtubes in any of my playthroughs. I'm hoping they show up in my current playthrough of the Trade scenario on Desertum. I could really use them.

[Jaggid Edje]

This thread got me curious enough to just look inside the game files themselves, in the mod editor. Here's the actual stats for the soil change properties of both:

Mulchtube:

• % Soil Change: 3%
  
• % Soil Change Random factor: 3%
  
• Soil Change Range: 2.4 m

Giant's Grass:

• % Soil Change: 0%
  
• Soil Change Random Factor: 10%
  
• Soil Change Range: 3 m

So basically the Mulchtube has a lower range, but is more 'consistent" with a soil change % that will range from 3% to 6%, compared to Giant's grass at 0% to 10%.

The higher range combined with the slightly higher average change does put Giant's grass as slightly better. Mulchtubes are just more consistent, insofar as that you will always at least get something out of them.

No indication whether a harvest is required, but because it's using the same exact game code, just with different variable values, if it's required for one, it's required for the other.

[Actual Malice]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

This thread got me curious enough to just look inside the game files themselves, in the mod editor. Here's the actual stats for the soil change properties of both:

Mulchtube:

• % Soil Change: 3%
  
• % Soil Change Random factor: 3%
  
• Soil Change Range: 2.4 m

Giant's Grass:

• % Soil Change: 0%
  
• Soil Change Random Factor: 10%
  
• Soil Change Range: 3 m

So basically the Mulchtube has a lower range, but is more 'consistent" with a soil change % that will range from 3% to 6%, compared to Giant's grass at 0% to 10%.

The higher range combined with the slightly higher average change does put Giant's grass as slightly better. Mulchtubes are just more consistent, insofar as that you will always at least get something out of them.

No indication whether a harvest is required, but because it's using the same exact game code, just with different variable values, if it's required for one, it's required for the other.

Highly interesting. Thank you for that detective work. But if mulchtube only enhances the soil by three percent, and you're starting with soil that is at 40 percent (or as in my current playthrough, zero percent), then it would only take 20 years to get the soil back to 100 percent? Can that be right? I must be misinterpreting something.

[starlight78sso]

Well at least now I know what to do with that section that turned to sand from my crystals. And I agree it probably has to be harvested, as the change to the soil didnt happen til I harvested the crystals.

[Jaggid Edje]

Where are you getting 'per year' out of what I posted?

I guess I should have dug deeper to see what the time factor is for the effect though. LOL

Anyway, I looked again to see if that info was in there, and it is, in the tooltip. The change iis for the full harvest period. When it bears fruit in the case of mulchtubes, and when it is fully grown in the case of giant's grass.

Which also answers the question about harvesting. Yes, you need to harvest, if you want to maximize the effect, as it won't be changing soil if it is just sitting there fully grown or with fruit waiting to pick.

Growth time for mulchtubes is 12 days, fruit re-growth time is 8 days. Growth time for Giant's grass is 6 days. Which means giant's grass wins again in terms of how frequently the % change of soil will happen. But only if the soil is already decent.
Mulchtube grows better (thus faster) in worse soil (Sand and gravel).

[Daynen Drakeson]

Fascinating data...but it doesn't change the fact that I've had my test patches growing for over three years with zero change. This leads me to wonder if mulchtube is indeed meant to only work in the desert. It seems to GROW just fine, but the soil has been absolutely unchanged, harvest or no.

As an aside, I find it hilarious that mulchtube can be grown in a hydroponic tray. WHY WOULD YOU EVER DO THAT??

[Actual Malice]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

Where are you getting 'per year' out of what I posted?

Yeah, my bad. I'm always thinking in terms of energy crystals, which were tied to mulchtube when they were introduced as rotating crops. Energy crystals take a year. But it would seem you can get two, maybe three harvests of mulchtube in a year (and more of Giant's Grass).

But even if you got five harvests of mulchtube in a year, with a three percentage point increase for each harvest, that is still four years to get from 40 to 100 percent, or am I misinterpreting something?

Originally posted by Daynen Drakeson:

...

As an aside, I find it hilarious that mulchtube can be grown in a hydroponic tray. WHY WOULD YOU EVER DO THAT??

That is funny. And your "zero change" is concerning. Do we have to conclude that "improving the soil" is broken? Grow as many energy crystals as you think you will need in your first go-round, because you likely will not get another chance in that same spot?

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Actual Malice:

But even if you got five harvests of mulchtube in a year, with a three percentage point increase for each harvest, that is still four years to get from 40 to 100 percent, or am I misinterpreting something?

The only possible misinterpretation that I see is that you are interpreting soil quality numbers that you see in game as the actual value that it is changing. It is changing soil type, which is not the same thing.

The numbers you see in game for soil quality vary depending on what plant you are planting, different soil types have different values for different plants. The % you see is the growth rate modifier, not the soil-quality%. So the actual scale that is being changed is not even something we can see.
All we can see in game is the descriptor text for soil type, not what the % is along the scale to the next soil type.

Unless I'm missing something, you're making an assumption that they are the same overall values in terms of scale, and I don't see that we have the information to actually make that assumption.

Honestly, I would love to do some long-term testing (as in years-passing in-game) of the two side-by-side, but I have yet to get Mulchtubes at all, in any of my playthroughs, and I've only gotten Giants grass once (big disappointment, that). They both have been very elusive for me.

[Daynen Drakeson]

Yeah, my testing's still turning up nothing. Might do a desert map run once just to see; haven't done a desert playthrough yet. For now though, it's giant's grass for me.

[starlight78sso]

I did use the giant grass in an area that was silt, and sand, and it was getting better after only a couple harvests for the silt sections, the sand ones I had just planted before I ended for the day.

[Bjørn]

This thing with crystals and degrading soil is all new to me in my current game, and only now I noticed the effect of the crystals on the soil. Only one season changed the soil from loam to sand. I didn't actually notice until I saw a difference visually, that the ground where they grew was suddenly desert-like.

So now I'm replanting those fields with mulchtube, although I might try giant grass on one field. So from reading above here, it will take over 20 years to get the soil back to loam?

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Bjørn:

So now I'm replanting those fields with mulchtube, although I might try giant grass on one field. So from reading above here, it will take over 20 years to get the soil back to loam? :longhaul:

No, that was someone misinterpreting things by equating percentages in the game that mean something entirely different to the percent soil change effect. The two are not measuring the same thing even, so you can't do math between them to calculate the time-to-restore.

Edit: Give me a few minutes and I'll look at what the soil change effect is from the crystals. That should be the easiest way to see how much mulchtube/giant grass time is needed to offset its effect.

[Jaggid Edje]

Alright, so crystals have a soil change rating of 15%, and they change every soil type straight to sand. Giant grass and Mulchtubes both change via a progression of Sand->Clay->Silt->Loam, and a significantly slower percent.

So if you're after returning our sandy soil to loam, you'll need to grow mulchtubes or giant's grass for a very long time. Plant your energy crystals on Clay for the fastest restoration.

[Actual Malice]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

Alright, so crystals have a soil change rating of 15%, and they change every soil type straight to sand. Giant grass and Mulchtubes both change via a progression of Sand->Clay->Silt->Loam, and a significantly slower percent.

So if you're after returning our sandy soil to loam, you'll need to grow mulchtubes or giant's grass for a very long time. Plant your energy crystals on Clay for the fastest restoration.

Not entirely clear why you would want to plant energy crystals on Clay. Don't energy crystals deplete the soil to Sand, no matter what soil you start with? Why would starting with Clay make it faster to restore the Sand?

Restoration seems broken, whether it works slowly or not at all. It would seem for your first planting of energy crystals, you would want to find the best soil you can and get them in the ground as soon as you can. The 24-day growing period for energy crystals is cut short by the first frost, so poor soil or even delaying a day can mean the difference between getting those crystals your first year (if you disassembled a gun or laser pike to get the power cell and begin the research) or waiting until your second or third year. It would seem prudent to plant as many energy crystals as you will need in that first go-round. Plant Giant's Grass in that spot afterward if you so choose, but primarily if you want Giant's Grass (to feed all those Ulfen for Taming the Herd).

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Actual Malice:

Not entirely clear why you would want to plant energy crystals on Clay. Don't energy crystals deplete the soil to Sand, no matter what soil you start with? Why would starting with Clay make it faster to restore the Sand?

Because Clay is the closest to sand in the progression of soil restoration.

Read what I wrote. The restoration doesn't go from Sand straight to any better soiils. It has to go to Clay first, then to Silt, and then finally to Loam. While the energy crystals take ANY of those soil types straight to sand.

So a single crop of Energy crystals on Loam, in particular, is going to take longer to restore than the reduced grow time you'd have dealt with if you had just planted it on Clay.