Cheap difficulty?

[Luna Wildpawe]

Overall I liked the game but feel like some of the enemy encounters (specifically in the second half of the game) are not well balanced at all. As a long time gamer I'm no stranger to being locked in an arena and have tons of enemies thrown at you at once. It's a cheap but effective tactic that many games have done. However in most games that isn't an issue because the enemies don't require specific weapons to kill and/or the player is given enough of an area to move around in.

The problem is the basis of the combat in this game is each enemies require specific weapons/tactics to defeat them. Sure there are some weapons/abilities that overlap or special limited use ones that are effective against everything, but that doesn't make it any better. It can be hard to even see the enemies when they are all bunched up and doing their attacks. It became impossible to not take loads of damage because while trying to deal with one or two enemy types the rest are effectively invulnerable and free to gang up on you.

That wouldn't be as much of an issue if they at least gave you enough freedom to move around and crowd control. However the majority of arenas (as well of the levels themselves) are simply too claustrophobic for dealing with hordes of enemies that all require specific tactics. The worst of these was while on the roofs where I died multiple times because there was simply nowhere to go and not helped by the dang scooter bros bumping me off the roof. It was incredibly frustrating and really soured my experience up to then.

Of course you're probably thinking "well just use the glove/BFG then" which is great idea...if they are available to use. The BFG (or whatever it's called, it was late/early and i was exhausted) doesn't show up until near the very end, and even then the ammo was so rare that I barely got to use it. As for the glove it has a similar issue where it takes so long to charge up that you'll only get one (maybe two) uses per level. So if it's not already charged, or close enough to it, or you accidentally used it already then you are pretty much SOL. This is very likely on your first run with no foreknowledge of what's ahead. Also because there are often more than one big encounter per level, even if you did save it then you'll just get swarmed on the next one.

Despite all that I'm not saying the game is impossible or anything (I beat it on normal) just that it detracts from an otherwise fun game clearly made by people who cared. I don't regret buying the game and hope that they can address these issues in future updates.

Wondering if anyone else feels the same way or if it's just me lol

[David_Sh]

Publicado originalmente por Rushin' Russian:

I'm starting to enjoy all these claims you're making. Name a few, then.

I lose my temper very easily, so I'll take the L on this one rather than arguing over logical fallacies. I will humour you on the broken games, though.

I wrote the 100% achievement guide for Hunt Down the Freeman. I've played Arctic Adventure: Episodes, some particularly bad games from the Dread X anthologies, the Steam port of Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine, the aforementioned Neon Boost to some extent, Rebel Forces, SCP: Containment Breach's Multiplayer port, Subnautica, again to some extent, and Yooka-Laylee. Plus plenty of mods for Half Life, Half Life 2, Left 4 Dead 2, Portal 2 etc., all of questionable quality. That's all I can find scrolling through my Steam library.

It'd be cheating to name every broken flash game I've played over the years, so I won't bother going down memory lane.

[Rushin]

Publicado originalmente por David_Sh:

I wrote the 100% achievement guide for Hunt Down the Freeman.

Definitely starting with a bang there haha. That itself is worthy of a tombstone engraving :p

Good stuff though, I'm familiar with a bunch of these. Probably just like you, I too like to find obscure, often broken games with like 3 reviews or mods and play the hell out of them.

I guess the difference is that I don't go around assuming I'm more skilled or more sophisticated than "most other people here". Neither I reply to every post in the topic with an equivalent of "idk I didn't have problems with it". And most certainly I don't think that playing lots of broken games should let you turn a blind eye to the faults and issues of the well-crafted ones, no matter how minor.

Quite the opposite, that vast experience usually nets the ability to better analyze gameplay mechanics and discuss them in-depth, which is kinda what I was trying to do a couple posts ago before I was frankly offended by your nonchalant "I'm better than most of you anyways". Having said that, we really should go back to discussing actual game design here.

[David_Sh]

There's a reason why I'm taking computer science and not game design at uni this year. I'll leave that discussion to you and the rest of this thread. I just want to add that the "I didn't have any issues with it" was poorly phrased confusion, I didn't intend it to come off in a mocking tone and I'm sorry if it did. The root of it is my low self esteem based idea of "if I did it, how hard can it be"

[Ace]

Publicado originalmente por Luna Wildpawe:

Overall I liked the game but feel like some of the enemy encounters (specifically in the second half of the game) are not well balanced at all. As a long time gamer I'm no stranger to being locked in an arena and have tons of enemies thrown at you at once. It's a cheap but effective tactic that many games have done. However in most games that isn't an issue because the enemies don't require specific weapons to kill and/or the player is given enough of an area to move around in.

The problem is the basis of the combat in this game is each enemies require specific weapons/tactics to defeat them. Sure there are some weapons/abilities that overlap or special limited use ones that are effective against everything, but that doesn't make it any better. It can be hard to even see the enemies when they are all bunched up and doing their attacks. It became impossible to not take loads of damage because while trying to deal with one or two enemy types the rest are effectively invulnerable and free to gang up on you.

That wouldn't be as much of an issue if they at least gave you enough freedom to move around and crowd control. However the majority of arenas (as well of the levels themselves) are simply too claustrophobic for dealing with hordes of enemies that all require specific tactics. The worst of these was while on the roofs where I died multiple times because there was simply nowhere to go and not helped by the dang scooter bros bumping me off the roof. It was incredibly frustrating and really soured my experience up to then.

Of course you're probably thinking "well just use the glove/BFG then" which is great idea...if they are available to use. The BFG (or whatever it's called, it was late/early and i was exhausted) doesn't show up until near the very end, and even then the ammo was so rare that I barely got to use it. As for the glove it has a similar issue where it takes so long to charge up that you'll only get one (maybe two) uses per level. So if it's not already charged, or close enough to it, or you accidentally used it already then you are pretty much SOL. This is very likely on your first run with no foreknowledge of what's ahead. Also because there are often more than one big encounter per level, even if you did save it then you'll just get swarmed on the next one.

Despite all that I'm not saying the game is impossible or anything (I beat it on normal) just that it detracts from an otherwise fun game clearly made by people who cared. I don't regret buying the game and hope that they can address these issues in future updates.

Wondering if anyone else feels the same way or if it's just me lol

100% Agree, i really love the game apart from this one issue, i'm fine with lots of enemies but in some very small rooms it's such a pain to deal with.

[David_Sh]

Publicado originalmente por Rushin' Russian:

this

Here's something I can add for people struggling with higher difficulties. Don't rush the game and treat every level completed as its own achievement. I've been playing this game at a pace of 1 or 2 levels a day at most and it's very rewarding.

[Mopeful Games]

Hey peeps thanks for the interesting discussion and valid critisisms! here's some random pointers from the designers perspective:

- I agree that some of the fights are quite cramped up and hard, with not a lot of escape opportunities. With limited dev time not all fights got the care and attention we would have liked, so they end up being a little half baked. The end fights can also get chaotic since there's so many enemies to choose from as well.

- A couple of fights you peeps mentioned are designed for Fab Slap or BFG purposes. For example the club flamer fight in mission 9 after platforming, and the second rooftop fight in mission 10 have way too many enemies for a normal encounter, but just the right amount for a fab slap. You can win these fights without the Glove, but they're meant to be especially difficult. Sometimes people just forget the glove!

Here's a few pointers that people might miss to make these fights less unbearable:

- Focus on the toughest enemies first: Some enemies are designed to get in your way, others get really crazy if you leave them unchecked. These enemies should be your priority #1.

- Use the belt almost all the time. Stunning enemies makes it a lot easier. You can also stun enemies with the gnome quickly.

- You can reposition with the wetones quickly and charge the drip mode at the same time for another Flamer kill.

[Mopeful Games]

Now that said, I'm also open to hearing which fights / levels in particular feel like a slog. Sending me a video of you struggling would be the most helpful, but also explaining them to me will also help.

Once I get your feedback I can go back and re-evaluate and try to improve the design.

Thanks again for the valid points!

- Pat (lead designer)

[Rushin]

Publicado originalmente por Mopeful Games:

- Use the belt almost all the time. Stunning enemies makes it a lot easier. You can also stun enemies with the gnome quickly.

This one here is particularly interesting because the game is quite clearly designed around that mechanic and it feels like it expects you to be stunning enemies in every fight. Yet it is something I've never used at all. The belt takes way too long to recharge (even after a quick tap), is fairly easy to miss (the enemy is just out of range way too often for me), doesn't work against those enemies that matter (unless pre-charged for a duration that is unreasonable mid-fight), and in the end it just doesn't stun enemies anywhere near long enough (at least it feels so). There's just very little bang for the buck.

So I simply never used the belt to stun enemies at all. Or honestly for anything at all other than grappling and killing the bubble enemies. Interestingly enough this seems common among players: out of 10.4% people who completed the campaign, only 7.7% used the belt against mere 100 enemies. So basically a lot of people who finished the game did not even use the belt more than what, ~8 times per level? That's including all the retries/reloads etc? And the 250 stuns achievement is much, much more rare as well.

The suggestion to "stun enemies with the gnome" sounds a little naive to me as well. Why even stun enemies with a wrong weapon if I can outright defeat them with a proper one? I just fail to see how stunning is more than a little bit occasionally useful in this game, most of the damage can and should be avoided by moving around properly and/or keeping your distance. 'Least in my opinion.

[David_Sh]

Maybe we've found why I might have had a slightly easier time then. I tend to spam the belt a lot.

It's very useful against the disco and flasher enemies (when fully charged of course, which as you've brought up is its own annoyance) and moderately useful against everything else. I do think you need to have some prior knowledge of the enemies that appear in an area so you can charge it in time, though.

[Luna Wildpawe]

Publicado originalmente por Mopeful Games:

Hey peeps thanks for the interesting discussion and valid critisisms! here's some random pointers from the designers perspective:

- I agree that some of the fights are quite cramped up and hard, with not a lot of escape opportunities. With limited dev time not all fights got the care and attention we would have liked, so they end up being a little half baked. The end fights can also get chaotic since there's so many enemies to choose from as well.

- A couple of fights you peeps mentioned are designed for Fab Slap or BFG purposes. For example the club flamer fight in mission 9 after platforming, and the second rooftop fight in mission 10 have way too many enemies for a normal encounter, but just the right amount for a fab slap. You can win these fights without the Glove, but they're meant to be especially difficult. Sometimes people just forget the glove!

Here's a few pointers that people might miss to make these fights less unbearable:

- Focus on the toughest enemies first: Some enemies are designed to get in your way, others get really crazy if you leave them unchecked. These enemies should be your priority #1.

- Use the belt almost all the time. Stunning enemies makes it a lot easier. You can also stun enemies with the gnome quickly.

- You can reposition with the wetones quickly and charge the drip mode at the same time for another Flamer kill.

First of all, thank you for listening to the criticism and taking it all well. I didn't want to come off as hostile or overly critical, just give my thoughts after completing the game. So I appreciate you taking the time to respond :)

Anyway yeah I had a feeling that the second half didn't get as much work as opposed to the early levels which seemed much more polished.

The first fight that gave me real trouble was the rooftop section right after swinging over from the helicopter. I had used the glove shortly before (because i had taken a beaten in the cramped areas leading up to the gap) so when I got to it my only option was to either push through or restart the whole level. While I understand your reasoning I just don't think it's good game design to make encounters that practically require a limited use special ability to get through. Combined with the cramped quarters it was a real double whammy of frustration for me.

The BFG is nice and all but only becomes available near the very end of the game. And even then the ammo was pretty rare so outside of the final boss I barely got to use it. Maybe it would help for redoing past levels, but on an first run it's not even an option until the very end of the game.

As for the belt, yeah that is an option however I didn't use it much except when required because I didn't find it very useful. For one it requires you to be really close to enemies to even use, which can be an issue with so many enemies that attack at range or rapidly move around the arena. Another issue is the charge time/cooldown for it, in the middle of a big fight even a few seconds can feel like an eternity. This is especially true if you miss or hit the wrong target which is entirely possible amid the chaos of enemies bunched together and attacking at once.

Using the water gun to move around is a fine idea in theory however that doesn't work if the arena is too small and/or filled with enemies to go anywhere. I absolutely agree that would be a good tactic if the encounters were opened up enough to make good use of it.

Focusing on specific enemies is another "easier said than done" tactic due to all the factors mentioned before. It's not impossible to do and definitely a good idea, it just means that you'll likely take some free hits while trying to deal with them first.

Again I'm just trying to offer my views as a player as honestly and fairly as possible. My main issues come down to the game mechanics clashing with the level/encounter design. Like I said before if the player simply had more room to move around (or fewer enemies at a time) it wouldn't feel so cramped and chaotic during these encounters. It wasn't an insurmountable obstacle to get past or anything, it just soured what was otherwise a funny and entertaining experience.

Anyway that's my opinion, take that as you will and I wish you all luck in the future!

[Ricardo]

I started the game in the highest difficulty (that is what I use to do with most FPS) and after the first boss I decided to restart in "hard" (the third out of 4) because I found it a bit unbalanced. Hard is good and I am progressing at a decent pace. Anyway, I agree with the OP, even if eventually I can beat those areas, it takes a few tries. I suggest to use... the glove. Nooo, I am kidding! Of course the glove is always out of energy when you need it. But you can use the belt to knock out some enemies while you are dealing with others. I just wish the belt charged faster. And maybe the enemies stay dizzy a bit longer... That will fix it for me.

[Ricardo]

Update: Ok, now in the second half of the game it is getting annoying indeed.

[TinyPixxels]

Publicado originalmente por Ricardo:

Update: Ok, now in the second half of the game it is getting annoying indeed.

Thanks for your feedback above! If you let us know specifically what's annoying, we're happy to take another look. I the designers are thinking about improvements they can make, so any specifics you can give us are super useful =D

[beanman101283]

Hi! Really enjoying the game, but I did get to a point where some of the fights are pretty frustrating for me. I'm playing on Normal, and I will be the first to admit I'm not an amazing first person shooter player. I'm currently banging my head against the series of encounters where you first meet the DJ enemy in mission 10. There are several fights in a row, with no checkpoints or mocktails between them, and I've been unable to get past the DJ encounter on the beach because by the time I get there my health is too low.

Previously the rooftop encounter right after you swing off the helicopter gave me a lot of trouble. It felt like I didn't have enough room to maneuver, and i would sometimes surrounded by both tourists and bopped off the roof repeatedly by the glowy scooter enemies. Just took me a bunch of tries to get through that and I had used the Fab Slap right before it (and before the checkpoint) so i couldn't use it in the subsequent encounter.

I saw the tips above about spamming the belt which I will try to do more. And like I said, I am not an amazing shooter player. But just thought I'd throw my experience here in this thread. Sorry I don't have video or better descriptions to help.

[Ricardo]

Publicado originalmente por TinyPixxels:

Publicado originalmente por Ricardo:

Update: Ok, now in the second half of the game it is getting annoying indeed.

Thanks for your feedback above! If you let us know specifically what's annoying, we're happy to take another look. I the designers are thinking about improvements they can make, so any specifics you can give us are super useful =D

Hi. Sorry, I take the forum as a casual chat among players rather than a direct line with the developers so I wasn't very specific about it.

In my opinion, having many and different enemies in a narrow space (kind of arena, something that happens every now and then) can be very complicated because some enemies are very hard and some "bullets" can't be avoided and eventually you will get hit no matter how much you keep moving and strafing.

I love FPS and I usually play them in hard or nightmare. This one I am playing it in hard because I started the fourth difficulty but I found it too hard so I restarted in the third difficulty.

I have nothing against arenas or hordes, but I think there are occasions in which it feels like it is too much and it needs a little re-balance. I have the feeling that some little adjustments would help there. No big changes. Don't even reduce the number of enemies. Just small adjustments like:
-Reduce a 5% the life of the old man in a trenchcoat.
-Slow down his projectiles, so we can have a chance to dodge them at close distance.
-Increment 1 more second the time that enemies stay dizzy after getting hit with the belt.
-Reduce in 1 the number of fires that the fireguy can create.
-Maybe the fireguy shouldn't be able to create fires through walls or objects, so the player can take cover behind a column.

That kind of little things to rebalance the fights.
Honestly, often I feel like I was just a little bit short to get through the arena. It is just a little bit.

It is just my opinion, but I would like to know what others think.

Besides that, I think the game is amazing and I am enjoying it very much.