Rebirth System

[ඞsusඞ]

Lots of controversy around this.

I, as well as many others, think the new rebirth system is horrible. Rebirth is supposed to be difficult which is why it was locked behind Program X. Now the base programs (genesis) give you reborn tokens, and you still receive them even after rebirth. So now most people are just going to spam the easiest trials/mks to grind out rebirths. Not sure if it's a bug but it's pretty stupid. As for the actual rebirth, it's now 20 tokens which is absurd because you won't have enough even after completing Program X. I have 354 rebirths at the moment but I don't see myself continuing to grind towards 1000 because of this. Having to acquire more tokens means you do nearly double the amount of trials, which also means you spend even more time loading in and out of the shuttle and sleep room. Not sure how everyone else feels about it but I don't have time to be doing all that. The whole system was way better before 1.0 released because it it required a reasonable amount of tokens and time, and if you had a good duo/trio/quad then it would take about 1 hour to finish X. The only way I can see them fixing this is by reverting to the old system or having Program X/Ultra give 2x-2.5x the amount of tokens. In other words grinding rebirths will feel like doing Geister all over again, just constantly replaying the same trial over and over again.

Again, this is what me and a bunch of other Program X speedrunners/grinders think. Not saying I'm right, this is just an opinion.

[Tuna Sandwich]

they should adjust the amount of rebirth tokens you get, so you get way more on the harder trials and way less on the easy trials - but i do like the fact that you can get them on all trials, since it just gives the entire player base, and not just a select few who want to do hardcore challenges, the opportunity to enjoy the game to its full extent

[ඞsusඞ]

Originally posted by SNOT_EATER:

they should adjust the amount of rebirth tokens you get, so you get way more on the harder trials and way less on the easy trials - but i do like the fact that you can get them on all trials, since it just gives the entire player base, and not just a select few who want to do hardcore challenges, the opportunity to enjoy the game to its full extent

I can understand that, Program X is difficult for a majority of the player base but that gave an incentive to be more coordinated and find strats that work for you. You learn through trial & error so you'll eventually get the hang of it

[Maya-Neko]

Rebirth numbers doesn't really matter in the end. Nobody is looking at the stats in the lobby and gets impressed by anything. Maybe someone asks themselves, how someone could sink so much time into a single game, but in the end nobody cares if you've 1, 10 or 1000 rebirths. What matters more is rather how good you actually play, but that's something that can't be reflected through stats like this.

So the only thing you should care about is yourself. Simply don't do the Genesis project if you feel like it would be too easy. The current Program X + Program Ultra together are pretty much what Program X would've roughly looked like in the EA-system, so feel free to just go through all of them and then you can still feel like you've achieved something.

And the incentive to get better should mainly come from the player themselves and not being slapped into them through time wasting punishments. Some people might just take 2 or 3 rebirth longer than you to get to the point where they feel confident in playing Program X, but that's not really a reason to gatekeep them out of some of the content.

And PS: you might look down onto Genesis-Rebirths, but keep in mind, that you as well probably can't prove, that you've done all those 354 rebirths through your own skill. Even with the old system there was always the option to just get carried through the rebirth by better players. Not saying that you've done that, but just showing you, how unimportant that whole stat is to begin with.

[ඞsusඞ]

Originally posted by Maya-Neko:

Rebirth numbers doesn't really matter in the end. Nobody is looking at the stats in the lobby and gets impressed by anything. Maybe someone asks themselves, how someone could sink so much time into a single game, but in the end nobody cares if you've 1, 10 or 1000 rebirths. What matters more is rather how good you actually play, but that's something that can't be reflected through stats like this.

So the only thing you should care about is yourself. Simply don't do the Genesis project if you feel like it would be too easy. The current Program X + Program Ultra together are pretty much what Program X would've roughly looked like in the EA-system, so feel free to just go through all of them and then you can still feel like you've achieved something.

And the incentive to get better should mainly come from the player themselves and not being slapped into them through time wasting punishments. Some people might just take 2 or 3 rebirth longer than you to get to the point where they feel confident in playing Program X, but that's not really a reason to gatekeep them out of some of the content.

And PS: you might look down onto Genesis-Rebirths, but keep in mind, that you as well probably can't prove, that you've done all those 354 rebirths through your own skill. Even with the old system there was always the option to just get carried through the rebirth by better players. Not saying that you've done that, but just showing you, how unimportant that whole stat is to begin with.

You definitely can see how good someone is through stats. It's the playstyle that's different. You can consider someone good if they A+ every trial and don't get hit while spending 30 minutes on each one. You can also consider someone good if they speedrun the game and consistently clear mks/trials under 3/8 minutes. I'm grinding 1000 reborns because I enjoy speedrunning the game and it would be funny if I got it. I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm good just from my rebirths. If anything, my speedrun times are way more impressive than my reborn count and I've beat plenty of the current WRs on this game.

[Maya-Neko]

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm good just from my rebirths.

Yet you're here, announcing to everyone, that you're stopping to try to reach 1k rebirth. Why, if not to get this counter to mean something that proves your worth?

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

You definitely can see how good someone is through stats.

Only to some degree and up to a specific point. And even then it's still quite inaccurate, as you can't estimate how much knowledge a player has from a different game, how fast he had learned or whatever.

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

You can consider someone good if they A+ every trial and don't get hit while spending 30 minutes on each one. You can also consider someone good if they speedrun the game and consistently clear mks/trials under 3/8 minutes.

And this is the inaccuracy i'm talking about. Players have different goals for their time and if you build a set of "this is good", then it might get some people under the radar. I'm starting to be a speedrunner for this game as well and ever since, my blood loss for example starts to rapidely rise due to all the dmg boosting and wrong guesses for where keys are. Am i bad, because i loose more blood due to mistakes? or good, because i sacrifice blood to be faster? Just from looking on the stats you simply can't tell, why i've lost it.

Obviously you can make your range of what is considered good to be bigger or consider more playstyles, but then we come back to what i've initially said: Stats start to loose their meaning for those, who don't look past it (and even more so, don't have a frame of reference, like seeing you having 354 doesn't tell the story of you being a speedrunner).

[ShockedHearts]

but hey new ending cutscene that you have a 33% chance of seeing.

hope you dont mind the possability of seeing the 2 old endings 20 times before the new one.

enjoying the game so far tho. only 21 rebirths myself

[ඞsusඞ]

Originally posted by Maya-Neko:

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

I don't need to prove to anyone that I'm good just from my rebirths.

Yet you're here, announcing to everyone, that you're stopping to try to reach 1k rebirth. Why, if not to get this counter to mean something that proves your worth?

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

You definitely can see how good someone is through stats.

Only to some degree and up to a specific point. And even then it's still quite inaccurate, as you can't estimate how much knowledge a player has from a different game, how fast he had learned or whatever.

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

You can consider someone good if they A+ every trial and don't get hit while spending 30 minutes on each one. You can also consider someone good if they speedrun the game and consistently clear mks/trials under 3/8 minutes.

And this is the inaccuracy i'm talking about. Players have different goals for their time and if you build a set of "this is good", then it might get some people under the radar. I'm starting to be a speedrunner for this game as well and ever since, my blood loss for example starts to rapidely rise due to all the dmg boosting and wrong guesses for where keys are. Am i bad, because i loose more blood due to mistakes? or good, because i sacrifice blood to be faster? Just from looking on the stats you simply can't tell, why i've lost it.

Obviously you can make your range of what is considered good to be bigger or consider more playstyles, but then we come back to what i've initially said: Stats start to loose their meaning for those, who don't look past it (and even more so, don't have a frame of reference, like seeing you having 354 doesn't tell the story of you being a speedrunner).

When tf did I say I'm grinding 1000 to prove I'm good? I said I'm doing it because it would be funny if I did while passively grinding. If you can put 2 and 2 together then you can tell if someone is a speedrunner or not based on their stats. Also where did you get this idea that this was an announcement that I'm not going to continue grinding 1000 rebirths? The whole point was to see what other people think of the new changes and if they align with what me and a bunch of others have discussed on discord.

[Maya-Neko]

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

When tf did I say I'm grinding 1000 to prove I'm good? I said I'm doing it because it would be funny if I did while passively grinding. If you can put 2 and 2 together then you can tell if someone is a speedrunner or not based on their stats. Also where did you get this idea that this was an announcement that I'm not going to continue grinding 1000 rebirths? The whole point was to see what other people think of the new changes and if they align with what me and a bunch of others have discussed on discord.

ok sorry, i seem to have misinterpret it then.

Though, the old system wanted you to do 6 MK-Challenges and 4 Trials, adding up to around 3-4 hours for a casual playthrough. The new system recommends to do 10 MK-Challenges and 5 trials, adding up to 4-5 hours, with the option to do whatever is fun to you with up to like 10 trials at 5-6 hours or 20 MK-challenges at like 3 hours.

I don't see, where grinding towards it got that much harder to be honest, especially as a speedrunner where you might want to grind for a MK-Challenge-PB anyway.

And i highly doubt, that you can see someone being a speedrunner only by the stats provided in the lobby.

Like if you gonna tell me, that you can tell by see someone having played a high amount of trials compared to a low number of hours played, then that could also happen by someone just playing MK-Challenges only.

Or high amounts of succeded trials to low failed one? The game won't count any trial as being lost when you leave them through the menu.

The amount of Reagents released? I could release like 2 reagents every day, even when playing casually, which would be around 600 rebirths since release now, which i've yet not seen even one player reach (and even you are still far away from it, so that's obviously no definite tell as well)

[ShockedHearts]

Originally posted by Maya-Neko:

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

When tf did I say I'm grinding 1000 to prove I'm good? I said I'm doing it because it would be funny if I did while passively grinding. If you can put 2 and 2 together then you can tell if someone is a speedrunner or not based on their stats. Also where did you get this idea that this was an announcement that I'm not going to continue grinding 1000 rebirths? The whole point was to see what other people think of the new changes and if they align with what me and a bunch of others have discussed on discord.

ok sorry, i seem to have misinterpret it then.

Though, the old system wanted you to do 6 MK-Challenges and 4 Trials, adding up to around 3-4 hours for a casual playthrough. The new system recommends to do 10 MK-Challenges and 5 trials, adding up to 4-5 hours, with the option to do whatever is fun to you with up to like 10 trials at 5-6 hours or 20 MK-challenges at like 3 hours.

I don't see, where grinding towards it got that much harder to be honest, especially as a speedrunner where you might want to grind for a MK-Challenge-PB anyway.

And i highly doubt, that you can see someone being a speedrunner only by the stats provided in the lobby.

Like if you gonna tell me, that you can tell by see someone having played a high amount of trials compared to a low number of hours played, then that could also happen by someone just playing MK-Challenges only.

Or high amounts of succeded trials to low failed one? The game won't count any trial as being lost when you leave them through the menu.

The amount of Reagents released? I could release like 2 reagents every day, even when playing casually, which would be around 600 rebirths since release now, which i've yet not seen even one player reach (and even you are still far away from it, so that's obviously no definite tell as well)

it takes you guys 5 hours to rebirth? I can do it in like an hour and a half casually.

[BEEFPRO]

I think the suggestion of Program X/Ultra giving additional tokens after completion is good for folks farming rebirths, but I legit celebrated when I saw this new system. I typically would run program X in random groups, and I cannot express to you the frustration that would come through that. The extreme pain that would come when a team would randomly disband took just about all the fun out of getting tokens because it would basically guarantee that you would either replay trials in new groups or spend 30 minutes to an hour trying to find at least 1 person who was willing to join you in your scuffed Program X run. New system removes this issue altogether.

Plus, I thoroughly enjoy playing with new players, who very rarely would ever stick around for program X due to the difficulty for them, so being able to farm rebirths while just enjoying whichever trial I end up in is a big deal for me.

The token requirement does seem a bit high, going from what would have been 14 in the previous version of the game to 20 probably adds about another 20-80 minutes depending on skill of players and trials picked (not including loading times), so it is a significant addition. Personally I would rather focus on having fun in the trials than farming rebirths, but I agree with having a faster option for those who want it.

[Nothin']

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

Lots of controversy around this.

I, as well as many others, think the new rebirth system is horrible. Rebirth is supposed to be difficult which is why it was locked behind Program X. Now the base programs (genesis) give you reborn tokens, and you still receive them even after rebirth. So now most people are just going to spam the easiest trials/mks to grind out rebirths. Not sure if it's a bug but it's pretty stupid. As for the actual rebirth, it's now 20 tokens which is absurd because you won't have enough even after completing Program X. I have 354 rebirths at the moment but I don't see myself continuing to grind towards 1000 because of this. Having to acquire more tokens means you do nearly double the amount of trials, which also means you spend even more time loading in and out of the shuttle and sleep room. Not sure how everyone else feels about it but I don't have time to be doing all that. The whole system was way better before 1.0 released because it it required a reasonable amount of tokens and time, and if you had a good duo/trio/quad then it would take about 1 hour to finish X. The only way I can see them fixing this is by reverting to the old system or having Program X/Ultra give 2x-2.5x the amount of tokens. In other words grinding rebirths will feel like doing Geister all over again, just constantly replaying the same trial over and over again.

Again, this is what me and a bunch of other Program X speedrunners/grinders think. Not saying I'm right, this is just an opinion.

"I don't have time to be doing all that" *Spend more than 1000 hours in the game* LMAO
PD: I agree with everything you said but that thing about you not having time...

[ඞsusඞ]

Originally posted by Nothin':

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

Lots of controversy around this.

I, as well as many others, think the new rebirth system is horrible. Rebirth is supposed to be difficult which is why it was locked behind Program X. Now the base programs (genesis) give you reborn tokens, and you still receive them even after rebirth. So now most people are just going to spam the easiest trials/mks to grind out rebirths. Not sure if it's a bug but it's pretty stupid. As for the actual rebirth, it's now 20 tokens which is absurd because you won't have enough even after completing Program X. I have 354 rebirths at the moment but I don't see myself continuing to grind towards 1000 because of this. Having to acquire more tokens means you do nearly double the amount of trials, which also means you spend even more time loading in and out of the shuttle and sleep room. Not sure how everyone else feels about it but I don't have time to be doing all that. The whole system was way better before 1.0 released because it it required a reasonable amount of tokens and time, and if you had a good duo/trio/quad then it would take about 1 hour to finish X. The only way I can see them fixing this is by reverting to the old system or having Program X/Ultra give 2x-2.5x the amount of tokens. In other words grinding rebirths will feel like doing Geister all over again, just constantly replaying the same trial over and over again.

Again, this is what me and a bunch of other Program X speedrunners/grinders think. Not saying I'm right, this is just an opinion.

"I don't have time to be doing all that" *Spend more than 1000 hours in the game* LMAO
PD: I agree with everything you said but that thing about you not having time...

Outlast Trials is the only game I play, I'm too busy with college and work to be playing other games. My steam hours are not accurate either, I spend a lot of time AFK so my hours are cooked. I have 410 hours of in-game time.

[ඞsusඞ]

Originally posted by BEEFPRO:

I think the suggestion of Program X/Ultra giving additional tokens after completion is good for folks farming rebirths, but I legit celebrated when I saw this new system. I typically would run program X in random groups, and I cannot express to you the frustration that would come through that. The extreme pain that would come when a team would randomly disband took just about all the fun out of getting tokens because it would basically guarantee that you would either replay trials in new groups or spend 30 minutes to an hour trying to find at least 1 person who was willing to join you in your scuffed Program X run. New system removes this issue altogether.

Plus, I thoroughly enjoy playing with new players, who very rarely would ever stick around for program X due to the difficulty for them, so being able to farm rebirths while just enjoying whichever trial I end up in is a big deal for me.

The token requirement does seem a bit high, going from what would have been 14 in the previous version of the game to 20 probably adds about another 20-80 minutes depending on skill of players and trials picked (not including loading times), so it is a significant addition. Personally I would rather focus on having fun in the trials than farming rebirths, but I agree with having a faster option for those who want it.

See, I can totally understand this POV. It allows you to play with more people and you don't have to duplicate trials if you already got a token for it. My main issue is that rebirth requires more tokens, which means you have to do more trials, which for me means more loading time. I already spend more time loading in and out of trials/sleep room than actually playing the game.

[ඞsusඞ]

Originally posted by Maya-Neko:

Originally posted by ඞsusඞ:

When tf did I say I'm grinding 1000 to prove I'm good? I said I'm doing it because it would be funny if I did while passively grinding. If you can put 2 and 2 together then you can tell if someone is a speedrunner or not based on their stats. Also where did you get this idea that this was an announcement that I'm not going to continue grinding 1000 rebirths? The whole point was to see what other people think of the new changes and if they align with what me and a bunch of others have discussed on discord.

ok sorry, i seem to have misinterpret it then.

Though, the old system wanted you to do 6 MK-Challenges and 4 Trials, adding up to around 3-4 hours for a casual playthrough. The new system recommends to do 10 MK-Challenges and 5 trials, adding up to 4-5 hours, with the option to do whatever is fun to you with up to like 10 trials at 5-6 hours or 20 MK-challenges at like 3 hours.

I don't see, where grinding towards it got that much harder to be honest, especially as a speedrunner where you might want to grind for a MK-Challenge-PB anyway.

And i highly doubt, that you can see someone being a speedrunner only by the stats provided in the lobby.

Like if you gonna tell me, that you can tell by see someone having played a high amount of trials compared to a low number of hours played, then that could also happen by someone just playing MK-Challenges only.

Or high amounts of succeded trials to low failed one? The game won't count any trial as being lost when you leave them through the menu.

The amount of Reagents released? I could release like 2 reagents every day, even when playing casually, which would be around 600 rebirths since release now, which i've yet not seen even one player reach (and even you are still far away from it, so that's obviously no definite tell as well)

I can understand that too, the way I see if someone is a speedrunner is by looking at their trials completed/hours in-game/blood loss and maybe reborns. If you look at these 3 you can make connections and make a rough estimate on their speed. I've seen people with double my in-game hours but I end up having more trials completed and reborns than them. But like I said, being a casual player and not a speedrunner doesn't mean you're bad at all.

[Bone]

What happened with the rebirth story? It made no sense.