Prevent Early Access to Gomez's Key, Ore Armor, and Innos' Wrath

[laurentiudragu78]

I would like to suggest a fix for an exploit that allows players to obtain Gomez's key as early as Chapter 1. By abusing game mechanics, players can gain access to Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath long before they are intended to be available.

In the original game, Gomez is meant to be confronted and defeated in Chapter 5. Because of that, his key should not be obtainable before then. A possible solution would be to remove the key from his inventory entirely and have it awarded only as a quest item during the Chapter 5 storyline. Another option would be to make Gomez untargetable until the relevant Chapter 5 quest begins.

Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath are endgame rewards and are designed to represent the player's progression throughout the game. Being able to acquire them in Chapter 1 breaks game balance, trivializes much of the challenge, and hurts immersion. Instead of gradually growing stronger through exploration, combat, and character development, players can skip a large part of the intended progression through an exploit.

I believe players should experience the sense of achievement that comes from earning powerful equipment through hard work and progression, not through bugs or unintended mechanics. Fixing this issue would help preserve both the balance and the overall experience of the game.

[living_one]

Just don't obtain them then, stop gatekeeping people from having fun they way they want.

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

I believe players should experience the sense of achievement that comes from earning powerful equipment through hard work and progression,.

And I believe people should be able to do whatever they want in a single player game.

[Isaphiel]

I understand your concern, but is this something new players could just stumble upon easily by accident, or do you have to deliberately do this?

In case of the first, I agree with your post.
In case of the second there is a pretty simple solution: Don't do it. Because then it would be the same as people complaining about the fact that you could break the economy by luring Templars into the swamp to be killed by monsters to take their weapons. In which case they could also just not do it.

[laurentiudragu78]

Originally posted by living_one:

Just don't obtain them then, stop gatekeeping people from having fun they way they want.

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

I believe players should experience the sense of achievement that comes from earning powerful equipment through hard work and progression,.

And I believe people should be able to do whatever they want in a single player game.

Nobody is stopping people from playing however they want. I'm talking about whether an unintended exploit that grants endgame gear in Chapter 1 should be fixed. That's a game balance issue, not a player freedom issue.

[laurentiudragu78]

Originally posted by Isaphiel:

I understand your concern, but is this something new players could just stumble upon easily by accident, or do you have to deliberately do this?

In case of the first, I agree with your post.
In case of the second there is a pretty simple solution: Don't do it. Because then it would be the same as people complaining about the fact that you could break the economy by luring Templars into the swamp to be killed by monsters to take their weapons. In which case they could also just not do it.

Fair point. It's not something new players are likely to discover by accident.

My argument is simply that Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath are meant to be endgame rewards. Getting them in Chapter 1 bypasses the intended progression, so I think the exploit should be fixed regardless of whether players choose to use it.

[Elgareth]

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

I would like to suggest a fix for an exploit that allows players to obtain Gomez's key as early as Chapter 1. By abusing game mechanics, players can gain access to Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath long before they are intended to be available.

You don't even need to exploit anything (apart from a bit of save scumming). I basically "stumbled" upon the Ore Armor naturally. Once I was let in by Diego, I rummaged around, opened the doors upstairs and looted the chests, the one with the Ore Armor you can't open.
But Gomez has this juicy coin bag hanging from his belt, so I waited until evening, when he gets up to go to sleep and pickpocketed him, and lo and behold, you get his key. Then just wait till the next day when he is sitting on his throne again and open the chest.

Playing around with the armor I slapped some Black Gobins and those bandits who make you pay for traversing the bridge, but it's no fun when there is no challenge, so I now keep the Ore armor in my inventory to bruteforce an enemy I want to defeat without waiting till I get stronger, but so far it remained stashed.

It's kind of tradition in Gothic games that you can cheese the progression a whole lot, so I think it's generally fine. However, it is a bit too easy to get it currently. (I tried attacking Gomez as well, and he is basically as strong as those bridge bandits, which is a bit weird...)

[laurentiudragu78]

Originally posted by Elgareth:

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

I would like to suggest a fix for an exploit that allows players to obtain Gomez's key as early as Chapter 1. By abusing game mechanics, players can gain access to Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath long before they are intended to be available.

You don't even need to exploit anything (apart from a bit of save scumming). I basically "stumbled" upon the Ore Armor naturally. Once I was let in by Diego, I rummaged around, opened the doors upstairs and looted the chests, the one with the Ore Armor you can't open.
But Gomez has this juicy coin bag hanging from his belt, so I waited until evening, when he gets up to go to sleep and pickpocketed him, and lo and behold, you get his key. Then just wait till the next day when he is sitting on his throne again and open the chest.

Playing around with the armor I slapped some Black Gobins and those bandits who make you pay for traversing the bridge, but it's no fun when there is no challenge, so I now keep the Ore armor in my inventory to bruteforce an enemy I want to defeat without waiting till I get stronger, but so far it remained stashed.

It's kind of tradition in Gothic games that you can cheese the progression a whole lot, so I think it's generally fine. However, it is a bit too easy to get it currently. (I tried attacking Gomez as well, and he is basically as strong as those bridge bandits, which is a bit weird...)

That's actually part of the problem for me. Just knowing that I can get Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath in Chapter 1 makes the progression feel less meaningful.

[Elgareth]

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

That's actually part of the problem for me. Just knowing that I can get Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath in Chapter 1 makes the progression feel less meaningful.

That's a purely personal thing. I know because I've felt the same a few years ago. But now it's actually not less fun to experience the normal progression of hunting in the Novice Robes instead of the Ore Armor, now it's simply my "frustration safeguard" should I get stuck somewhere and don't want to level a bit more before going on.
It's just a mindset. I'm glad I've put it away again, for I would've been bored slaughtering all this wildlife without any threat.

(It's why I never actually completed the story of the Original Gothic, my internal urge to minmax everything in the beginning made me so overpowered post chapter 1 that I got bored before ever reaching the endgame... just because I simply couldn't let go of all those exploits and cheese strats and just go with the flow of the game...)

[Draiocht Coemgien]

Right... Gomez... Steal his Key... Go to his room?.... Okay... notes taken,

Wheres.. Innos' Wrath :D

[Mr. Tavitel]

While it's cool that you can get it so early I don't like it either. Didn't even know you could pickpocket the key, I just beat Gomez and his buddies before moving to Chapter 2 (at level 18 with 106 strength it wasn't much of a problem).

[laurentiudragu78]

Originally posted by Elgareth:

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

That's actually part of the problem for me. Just knowing that I can get Ore Armor and Innos' Wrath in Chapter 1 makes the progression feel less meaningful.

That's a purely personal thing. I know because I've felt the same a few years ago. But now it's actually not less fun to experience the normal progression of hunting in the Novice Robes instead of the Ore Armor, now it's simply my "frustration safeguard" should I get stuck somewhere and don't want to level a bit more before going on.
It's just a mindset. I'm glad I've put it away again, for I would've been bored slaughtering all this wildlife without any threat.

(It's why I never actually completed the story of the Original Gothic, my internal urge to minmax everything in the beginning made me so overpowered post chapter 1 that I got bored before ever reaching the endgame... just because I simply couldn't let go of all those exploits and cheese strats and just go with the flow of the game...)

If a game gives you the best gear from the start, why even play it through the story? You can just skip everything and turn it into one-hit mode, which doesn’t make sense to me.

You’re a prisoner who becomes a hero through progression, not a god sent to punish everyone from the beginning. The whole point is starting weak and slowly building up through the colony, not being overpowered right away.

So even if people can choose not to use it, the fact that this shortcut exists and is so easy to find (especially with YouTube guides) changes how the game feels. I prefer when the game naturally supports its intended progression instead of relying on self-control to avoid breaking it.

[Iridzumi]

I killed Gomez with just 45 str (at lvl 6) and an axe from one of the thugs from the new camp, and looted the key. Ofc he hits like a truck but he is dumb like a wood. He was staggered like 2-3 times in a row and it was enough to melt him down. Ofc people are free to play the way the want but it is surprisingly easy to get the final items. Plus, the entire net is swarmed already with "how to get the best X right from the start". And btw we added to it, describing the ways :) I do believe it should be somehow restricted or the way all those high-end NPCs act should be adjusted to be more aggressive, smart etc. Right now all those barons are just a cannon fodder. Maybe some sort of checks could be introduced for them to be more resilient to low lvl main characters or improved his behavior, e.g. idk, calling for help xD or starting the fight when you are hanging around the second floor, cause not a single soul wondered what a hobo like me (I even didn't belong to the old camp yet) was doing near the rooms of the barons ><

[Elgareth]

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

You’re a prisoner who becomes a hero through progression, not a god sent to punish everyone from the beginning. The whole point is starting weak and slowly building up through the colony, not being overpowered right away.

The point is that you are a nobody thrown into a foreign world, and find your own way.
I think the Pickpocketing shouldn't give you his key, if you attack and loot him to get his key that's fine, because that is a very deliberate "I don't care about the order of things" thing to do. And the Armor happens to exist in the world, in his chest, and he naturally has the key to his own chest, so it makes sense inside the world that you can get it way earlier than intended, that's one of the things that makes the Gothic series so special.
But I think Gomez should be pretty much the strongest NPC in the Old Camp, it's a bit cheap that he is so easy to knock down.

[Epitaph]

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

Originally posted by Elgareth:

That's a purely personal thing. I know because I've felt the same a few years ago. But now it's actually not less fun to experience the normal progression of hunting in the Novice Robes instead of the Ore Armor, now it's simply my "frustration safeguard" should I get stuck somewhere and don't want to level a bit more before going on.
It's just a mindset. I'm glad I've put it away again, for I would've been bored slaughtering all this wildlife without any threat.

(It's why I never actually completed the story of the Original Gothic, my internal urge to minmax everything in the beginning made me so overpowered post chapter 1 that I got bored before ever reaching the endgame... just because I simply couldn't let go of all those exploits and cheese strats and just go with the flow of the game...)

If a game gives you the best gear from the start, why even play it through the story? You can just skip everything and turn it into one-hit mode, which doesn’t make sense to me.

You’re a prisoner who becomes a hero through progression, not a god sent to punish everyone from the beginning. The whole point is starting weak and slowly building up through the colony, not being overpowered right away.

So even if people can choose not to use it, the fact that this shortcut exists and is so easy to find (especially with YouTube guides) changes how the game feels. I prefer when the game naturally supports its intended progression instead of relying on self-control to avoid breaking it.

Restricting it would be against gothic spirit tbh, there was always broken stuff u could obtain in gothic, provided u had the knowledge.

[laurentiudragu78]

Originally posted by Epitaph:

Originally posted by laurentiudragu78:

If a game gives you the best gear from the start, why even play it through the story? You can just skip everything and turn it into one-hit mode, which doesn’t make sense to me.

You’re a prisoner who becomes a hero through progression, not a god sent to punish everyone from the beginning. The whole point is starting weak and slowly building up through the colony, not being overpowered right away.

So even if people can choose not to use it, the fact that this shortcut exists and is so easy to find (especially with YouTube guides) changes how the game feels. I prefer when the game naturally supports its intended progression instead of relying on self-control to avoid breaking it.

Restricting it would be against gothic spirit tbh, there was always broken stuff u could obtain in gothic, provided u had the knowledge.

If you’ve played the original Gothic 1, you already know that armor like that and Gomez’s equipment were clearly restricted for a reason and tied to progression.

That’s why I don’t really see it as “Gothic spirit” to have it available in Chapter 1. The whole design is built around earning power step by step.

So my point is just that this isn’t about freedom of choice, but about whether the intended progression should be preserved in the first place.

[Koala]

How weird to care about something no one is forced to do.